Schllc

What I meant was when the cheapest new certified aircraft costs more than the average home in the country, it isn’t a hobby for the average joe. I don’t know where the point in quantity efficiency is realized it will never be high enough to make certified planes for 300k. I happen to believe the customers for an 1.5-2 million sexy, fast, quiet high UL plane are out there, they just haven’t been enticed/educated/sold like you said, you don’t need tens of thousands. You need low hundreds. they are out there. people don’t buy Ferraris because they are safe or new tech materials. they buy them because they are handmade, exclusive, rare and sexy. just like a Mooney! PS. Not really disagreeing with anyone on this post so far, we are all just spitballing and unless one of us wants to pony up 100 million we will never know whose idea is best!

Aviation is not an average guy’s game anymore. Given the small quantities, litigiousness of our society, and the FAA, there is no such thing as cheap in aviation. (I just paid $3,000 for 12 spark plugs). If you can’t find a way to interest people with a few million in disposable income laying around you have no hope in selling anything. No one wants to buy the Yugo of aviation.

Commercial glider? I would never even have thought that was even a thing… Are there commercial glider ops?

I hate to break it to you, but you have an incurable disease. I can spot it because I am also afflicted.

You aren’t alone. I dropped off my Aerostar in August for a new panel, with a promise of November delivery. I thought it was optimistic and press the shop to provide a date they could meet, not one they wanted me to hear. So we agreed on December which in my mind I prepared for right after New Years. Welcome to March, with only a lukewarm vague suggestion that April would be very possible.. I like and trust the shop I picked as well, and I mentally prepared myself for this, and even then…. My suggestion/support/advice would be for you need to keep focusing on how nice your baby will be when you get her back with that sweet autopilot! The unpleasant memory will go a way quicker than you think.

Commenting about service on a forum like this is a dangerous game because there are always three sides of the story, and the only place to really air grievances is in person, man to man. There are a lot of challenges in this genre/industry that just don’t exist anywhere else and it has shaped into what it is, like it or not. When an airplane goes somewhere for service and an airworthy issue is found your options are pretty slim, this has an impact on the shops and the customers, meaning it alters behavior long term… Even if you are unhappy for any reason, more often than not you can’t really just take it somewhere else, even if you do, it doesn’t guarantee to save money or time. Having appropriate expectations is 80% of the battle. I’ve had work done at Don’s and I wouldn’t hesitate to go back. Don is old school, a straight shooter and no nonsense. Paul is the second generation and is a tech and avionic whiz, also a straight shooter. Once you understand their nuances and adjust your expectations to match, you will be pleased. They have a nearly unmatched level of experience, access to parts, a willingness to work unusual problems, and all at a very reasonable rate. They don’t rush for anyone, but it isn’t apathy or for lack of caring, it’s just that every single thing in their day is a hot fire emergency for someone, and they are inured. Good, fast, cheap… pick two.

That’s just not accurate. I can easily afford a new ultra, (I have owned two of them). Insurance was only 7k a year. No mortgage. I have a t hangar and it only costs me 800 a month. if I could not pay cash for it I would not have purchased it. 200k for a jet card is for 25 hours, extra is 6-10k per hour. I fly my Mooney between 150-200 hours per year. The two are not anywhere near the same. I cannot afford 200k a year into the ether for a jet card. I think the biggest part of your error is that a million dollars today is not what it was when we were younger. PS. I live in Naples, FL. I don’t know of many more expensive place to live than here, but I’m not lighting cigars with $100 bills, and my ultra didn’t cost anywhere near 200k a year to own.

I never suggested 300knts. I don’t think it’s necessary.

I’m pretty sure if you contacted continental or lycoming and placed an order for 1million engines you would be able to negotiate significantly less than 80k.

Mooney has been trying to sell to people who know exactly what they want, and that market is small. Cirrus had been selling to people that didn’t know they wanted one, which is an exponentially larger market.

1000 thumbs up for the Mooney service center. well worth the trip. I will be bringing mine there for annual in may.

The first part you said is probably the real reason it’s all suffering. If you can’t get people interested in the product it’s doomed. A 25 hour jet card is running about 200k+ presently. I don’t believe a single engine piston cost anywhere near that per year to own and operate.

For some reason I thought it was 20k instead. Thanks for the correction.

This is your target market. If you only had 10% of that interested in aviation, you couldn’t make enough planes to satisfy even 1% of that 10%. That would be 22,000 people…. That’s about the amount of planes Mooney has built in total over 70 years!

Epic didn’t have a manufacturing certificate or a certified TC, that was what took seven years. Trying to compete with the TBM is once again, doing the same thing. It’s proven that won’t work. As I recall, they had no problem securing the deposits needed to move forward. As you’ve already pointed out, the demand for the same old thing is pretty lackluster, A really different product is the only hope, and even then…. All a moot point really, no one is dumping 10 million, much less 100 into Mooney. Private pilots in single engine pistons are rapidly becoming an anachronisms.

Exactly. They did it different. They created an experience beyond a buying transaction. People buy Ferrari’s and Pillipe Patelle watches because they are the epitome of quality and exclusivity. they like having the “best”. The catch is, that it actually has to be the best!

I don’t disagree unfortunately, I just mean that doing the same thing isnt going to work. The only hope for success, is to do something different. That is exactly what Cirrus did.

I feel you may have missed my point entirely. The point wasn’t to compete. Make something different, you don’t have to make more planes than Cirrus, you only need to make enough to be profitable, and if you cant do quantity, do it in quality

You left out the rest of the sentence.

Here is my two cents… I believe Mooney could revive its brand and cater to the same people buying bonanza’s and four million dollar watches if they could figure out how to market to them. People with money always want the “best”. The days of the average joe buying a new plane are gone forever, market to the rich or give it up. Cirrus did something completely different. They “created” a market where it didn’t exist. The average cirrus owner didn’t choose from the available aircraft, they bought a “Cirrus”, along with the Cirrus culture. Cirrus created a marketing, finance, investment product wrapped around an airplane. The fact that it had a parachute was more window dressing than it was the primary factor. I am not knocking the parachute, you can’t ignore the reality that it probably pushed a lot of people over the finish line. But people are not buying the Cirrus because it is the best of anything, they are buying it because there isn’t a viable option. I’m not talking about comparable airplane performance, I mean a total package, of financing training, tax consulting, leaseback/rental. If you want to compete with Cirrus you would have to compete on their terms, and create a cheaper Cirrus that is even easier to finance and buy. If Mooney were to revive, it would not be by persuading Cirrus owners to switch fan clubs, it would be by courting an entirely different group of buyers. Given the relatively small numbers of buyers needed (compared to something like cars), the product would have to be something unmatched in the market in either ability, quality or both. A turbine would only be a plus if it added to performance and useful load. Make it like a real high quality machine, good form and fit, quiet, well appointed and unique. People pay insane amounts of money for custom cars, and they depreciate by 50% or greater within five years. They don’t even care, they throw them away and get another. Produce a product that is truly better. I can promise you this, no one shows off a cirrus for its quality of build, comfort, quiet, performance or looks. Making it cheaper is a losing strategy. A 1200# UL, 250 knot, super quiet, 1200 mile range, fadec, autoland 4 person plane for 1.5 or even 2 million would be different! A parachute wouldn’t hurt but I don’t think it’s necessary. If you made something fine, rare and exclusive, people would want it, it’s human nature. If I had 100 million laying around I’d give it a go!

Buy the plane you want, and find a Mooney specific instructor. Then fly until you are very comfortable in the plane, insurance required hours or longer. Not sure of your complete experience level, but going from a 172 with zero complex or rg time may require more time than insurance demands. Be safe and thorough, the stakes are high. I got my ovation before finishing my ppl, with about 30 hours total time, and flew with an instructor for close to 50 hours. A good part of that was because I did my IFR training immediately after, but I easily needed 20+ before I was comfortable solo with passengers. There’s a lot going on between a flight school 172 and your average well kept mooney.

I had two ultras, the second door is grossly overrated. It took me about four months to stop walking around to the passenger side. The carbon fiber was a much better fit than the aluminum, the size of the door on the ultra is a winner but two of them is just more things to break and more places to leak. The NXI was great as was the panel layout, but in my opinion (and budget) not worth double the cost of a legacy Mooney. Mooney would have been better served by making the single door larger and avoiding all the expense and time they went through for two doors. Maybe they could have built more when the market was hot…

It appears to just be the normal learning curve. When you enter aviation, it’s hard to believe just how onerous and obtuse the rules are for things. I bought a g1000 ovation before I got my ppl, and a I remember all the patient people explaining to me why I couldn’t just bolt a turbo or turbo engine onto my plane. The scale of the market, along with some of the idiotic rules in the FAR’s, is just very different from anything else in our world. What often seems simple and logical, is complex and impossible, not to mention financially unjustifiable.

That is redundant….

I do not believe this to be the case. I go their frequently and signature is the only option. You may want hangar space, which they usually have. KARA is pretty close, and the fbo there is very friendly and cheaper , it’s just not as close to Lafayette, but only about 15 miles away.