Seatbelt Airbag system for M20J / M20K

[carusoam]

Keep up the good work, Richard!

It will save one of our bacons one day.

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

I would do it, but I have an F, so I'll have to suffer the face surgery I guess...   I can't believe anyone would question the value of airbags today. The automotive world has shown they are amazing. I personally would much prefer the ease and invisibility of a three point belt on a reel and an airbag, like in my car, as opposed to some 4/5 point NASCAR style harness that is no doubt cumbersome to put on, immobilizes you and makes your passengers think twice about flying in a small plane.

 

$12,000 for a paint job. $11,000 for an Aspen. New interior including leather wrapped yokes to plant your face on, $8,000. Glass engine monitor plus GAMIs and untold billable hours to get your engine to actually run LOP to "save money", $5,000+. New windshield to go 5kts faster, $5,000. The list goes on.

 

$3,800 to save yours and your passenger's life and/or face...  naw. Ain't worth it cause I'll never crash.

[PTK]

Also, NTSB and FAA reports have confirmed that Airbags prevent head and torso trauma. In other words, in the 170+ aviation accident in the GA marketplace that had airbags on board, we prevented head and torso trauma, and did not induce any injuries. Of those 170 accidents AmSafe airbags are attributed to saving 17 lives.

Data to substantiate these claims please.

[aviatoreb]

Hello again, 

 

Sorry I didn't see the replies and questions on the forum. 

 

Jose, each kit is for TWO SEATS. 

 

Labor time is from 8 - 12 hours

 

I would say that this system is PRICE WORTHY. I understand that for most aircraft owners in the C-F category the value of the aircraft ($40k - 65k) means that the investment of $5k must be considered carefully.  You are spending money on a system that is designed to save your life and prevent injury. Head and Torso trauma is the number one killer and the number one injury in aviation accidents, irregardless of the type of seatbelt you are wearing.

 

So, anytime you are in a accident that results in a G load of 9G's or greater, at 45ms time or greater, you have enough energy to move you into the instrument panel. Mooney aircraft are designed to withstand a high G load than that without structure failure.

 

If you are making purchase decisions strictly based upon ROI, than there is no amount of information that I can provide you other than to say, what is the value of your life. visit our website at www.amsafe.com to see survivor testimonials.

 

So, as a community I am offering you the chance to move forward into a development program. I suggest, that as a community, this is a opportunity that should not be passed up, especially for the legacy aircraft. 

 

As you all know, I am a Mooney guy for many years. I am using my position in my company to bring you a product that I personally think you need. I have to make a business case in order to push the development. 

 

You all need to discuss this and make up your minds what you want to do. The price is what it is. I will be able to come up with a "program offer" that will drop it probably $500 - $700. I will need no less than 40 owners who come together with no less than 50% deposit. 

 

That will fund the engineering time to change the drawing. This will fund the cost to resubmit the paperwork to the FAA to change the AML STC. This will fund the cost to conduct the static and dynamic deployment of the system in aircraft mock up sled tests. 

 

 

Thanks

 

R

 

Hi Richard, Thanks for not forgetting us!

 

As you may remember from my many emails to you in past years, I am a motivated buyer - I would really like your airbag seatbelts in my M20K.

 

So absolutely, please count me in.  PM when and where to send a check.

[richardheitzman]

Please visit our website at amsafe.com. Also you can read the reports released by the FAA and the NTSB. The most recent was the one from the NTSB on seatbelts which included a section on the airbags, and how they save lives. 

 

 

Data to substantiate these claims please.

[dfurst]

I am in.  I have a 1980 M20K 231 with a serial number below your current cutoff.  Let me know when and where to send a check.

[PTK]

You made these claims so please also provide the data that:

 

"Airbags prevent head and torso trauma"   and

"we prevented head and torso trauma"

 

I have a problem with absolute statements like these.

 

Thanks.

[aviatoreb]

You made these claims so please also provide the data that "Airbags prevent head and torso trauma." and "we prevented head and torso trauma"

 

I have a problem with absolute statements like these.

 

Thanks.

 

PTK, I am not sure if you expect statistics that show that the same person crashed with and without these airbags and in 10 crashes with and 10 crashes without, statistically the person was better off with, and the study was done as a hypothesis test with confidence alpha?  There are more ways than simply statistics to convince yourself that something is a good idea.  For example, experiments with an analogue model are considered scientific demonstration. 

 

That sounds like a crash sled test.  See the test at the end of this youtube.

 

 

 

I am quite satisfied from viewing the mechanism of this model test that the seatbelts are likely to be a good thing if you ever find yourself in a crash.  As an absolute statement that these things work, and will save the day on many occasions.  That said, and understanding this mechanism, it is my understanding that any ntsb study conclusion that airbag seat belts would help could only come as an expert opinion that a specific crash vector outcome would have been aided, or was aided, with airbags.  Mind you that a statement "prevent head and torso trauma" does not need to mean "prevent head and torso trama in every single incident" for the statement to be correctly and fairly stated. I hardly think it is meant to be an absolute statement that it can save the day every single time.

 

I want this product in my airplane as soon as possible.   I am quite satisfied they have been demonstrated both by experiments, and by expert (ntsb and faa) analysis and opinions.

[PTK]

Mind you that a statement "prevent head and torso trauma" does not need to mean "prevent head and torso trama in every single incident" for the statement to be correctly and fairly stated. I hardly think it is meant to be an absolute statement that it can save the day every single time.

Yes it does! That absolute statement, to me, means that a person utilizing an airbag harness will NOT suffer head and torso trauma in a crash. Really professor?! You can say that with a straight face?!

Incidentally, I read the report in its entirety and I just don't see such absolute conclusions.

So "does it prevent" head and torso trauma or "it can potentially reduce it depending on a zillion variables?"

The request is of the original poster. Show me the data please, or alternatively, revise the statement.

[fantom]

The request is of the original poster. Show me the data please, or alternatively, revise the statement.

I suspect we will see neither.

[aviatoreb]

Really professor?! You can say that with a straight face?!

 

Really, I am convinced it is worthwhile and I will put my money where my mouth is, if given the chance.

 

Its okay PTK, and fantom, we can agree to disagree it seems.  :-)

[fantom]

Really, I am convinced it is worthwhile and I will put my money where my mouth is, if given the chance.

 

Its okay PTK, and fantom, we can agree to disagree it seems.  :-)

 

I support your choice, and don't disagree with it...for you.

 

In just about everything in life, aviation, and even dentistry, much has to be taken on trust, with little, if any, absolute irrefutable proof. It almost always comes down to trust. If seatbelt airbags make you feel safer and you can afford them, go for it.

 

No different than pricey Garmin 750's, Cam Guard. or gimmicky checkerboard paint jobs.

[aviatoreb]

 

I support your choice, and don't disagree with it...for you.

 

In just about everything in life, aviation, and even dentistry, much has to be taken on trust, with little, if any, absolute irrefutable proof. It almost always comes down to trust. If seatbelt airbags make you feel safer and you can afford them, go for it.

 

No different than pricey Garmin 750's, Cam Guard. or gimmicky checkerboard paint jobs.

 

 

Actually, I can prove that a checkerboard paint job can prevent cavities in the teeth of 3 out of 4 pilots who paint their airplanes that way.  :-)

 

Data is great, and when it is available,  we quite know how to consume it.  But I had no data (available to me, even if it did exist) when I decided airbags were a good idea in cars and I shopped for a car with that feature when it was still a new idea, or ABS brakes for that matter, or I started wearing a helmet when bike racing long before most other people (it was Euro-chic to ride without a helmet).  Out of trust, yes.

 

But separate from data, it is quite unacceptable in a medical field to publish something without group studies and statistics to back up your statements, including hypothesis, confidence levels, and some statement on group size regarding the power of the statistic.  Other fields of science you demonstrate say mechanisms such as in mechanics.  I'm thinking of say the guy down the hall who builds theories on how structures crack, such as ice damns.  Or the fluids guy down the hall that optimizes shapes to reduce vortex shedding.  The model form is assumed, the shape is optimized and reported, and the mechanism is reported, along with the algorithm that computed it.  No statistics are taken or mentioned.  

 

Airbags live in both worlds.  Crash sled demonstrations suggest a mechanism that explains why they should be a good idea in a suggestive model of how bodies behave in crashes and how the mitigate the effect.  But then quite right, once deployed in the field, statistics might be producible of crashes with and without for a compare and contrast study for type and seriousness of injuries.  For cars, and the numbers of airbags out there in cars, I bet there are some real and high powered stats results on such things - that's what actuaries do.  I am doubtful they exist for airplanes and the low volume of incidents with.  Then all we would have are the experiments with crash dummies, and the expert opinions of ntsb officers from the field, both of which lead me to appreciate a statement that such a person would make saying airbags help.  Taken as absolute statements, true...I get what you mean. I don't feel snowed though, the statements are what they are, informed opinions.  I will tell my wife that airbags help when it comes time to write a check, as if an absolute statement, and she will believe me I am sure because I believe it is true and we both agree on these sorts of matters.  

 

Now if I approached my wife and said I wanted a new Garmin 750...I think I would get veto'ed. :-(

 

I use gamguard.

 

No checkers in my paint job.

[DaV8or]

Some people refuse to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle and will tell you that it just leads to broken necks. They will also tell you that your money is better spent on loud exhaust pipes so that motorists will hear you coming.

 

The same resistance to airbags was experienced in cars too... until enough were out in the field that people saw the light and now can't get enough of them. There just isn't enough in service to convince the doubters. Hopefully there will be enough early adopters and we can all look back at this quaint thread and laugh.

[PTK]

del ?? bugs!

[PTK]

Now if I approached my wife and said I wanted a new Garmin 750...I think I would get veto'ed. :-(

 

I use gamguard.

 

No checkers in my paint job.

Your wife has veto powers?

 

When I bought my motorcycle surprised her with it. She found it parked in the garage. Same for the Mooney. We went to the airport and I surprised her with it. It was parked in the hangar.

 

I never underestimate how blessed I am...she just wants me to be happy!

[aviatoreb]

Your wife has veto powers?

 

When I bought my motorcycle surprised her with it. She found it parked in the garage. Same for the Mooney. We went to the airport and I surprised her with it. It was parked in the hangar.

 

I never underestimate how blessed I am...she just wants me to be happy!

 

...I like the checkers on your airplane by the way.  Very unique.

 

Yes - she would not be happy if I showed up with a GTN750 on the credit card.  :-O

 

But I consider that I am blessed to - after all she lets me keep a very expensive toy - an airplane of my very own - even though she is personally not an airplane fan.

[romair]

Richard, I'm in as well. I want those seatbelts in my J. 

Stefan