TFR Violations Today

[M016576]

We flew through MOA's on a ten times daily basis when I was a pilot at Mesa. its not a big deal.

Research Midairs involving a MOA. Its about one per year average, or less. Your chances of getting struck by lighning are higher.

My point was regarding VFR traffic flying through the heart of a MOA during published active hours, not commercial traffic on a flight plan talking to the controlling agency (ie doing the right thing), or in the case of say SkyWest, flying during a published flight scheduled time that is disseminated to units that use the MOA for purpose of deconfliction. I have no beef with those that make an effort to do it right. It's the non talkers that give me heartburn. It's not hard to read the chart and call the controlling agency. In fact, it's just sheer laziness and neglect not to if its during an active time! Gosh.. We debate the safety of having 2-3 attitude sources or chart bags or real time wx plus a stormscope... But guys want to blow off TFRs and go cruising through dangerous airspace without talking to anyone because they find it inconvenient? I find that insane.

I'm honestly amazed that more mid airs don't occur. I chalk the safety up to onboard radars, training and situational awareness by our fighter pilots. It certainly isn't due to situational awareness by GA aircraft that aren't talking to center and are flying through the moas during published active hours. At the very least that traffic interrupts and deters our training (costing taxpayers dollars). At the worst, it becomes a safety issue for all involved. I think if some GA pilots realized just how close they were to fighter jets that alone would be deterrence enough. Alas- there is no iPad app that shows a fighter is rolling in on you at 500 kts, and you don't know you don't have SA until you regain it...

Ps- been struck by lightening in a jet, but haven't had a midair yet (knock on wood!). So I guess your stats on that are right!! ;-)

[danb35]

After all, it's not like aviation has ever been used as a tool to attack a big city... Like New York....

...and what kind of aircraft were used in those attacks? And are they affected by TFRs? Try again.

[1964-M20E]

Well regarding MOAs if I’m on an IFR flight plan ATC will advise and route me if necessary. If I’m VFR and flight following ATC will advise me and will it will be noted and I will continue my flight. Bottom line is this is our country and our airspace and the MOAs are for our dedicated and trained military to practice and I can legally fly though them and if necessary they will adjust just as if in a real situation they adjust to the changing battlefield. Also if they ever wanted to practice intercepting a small plane I’d be willing to participate. The only time I was ever close to military jets was many years ago two A-10 about 3 miles and we were not in or near any MOA.

This is about the misuse of TFRs and the perceived safety they give. A small plane flying at 120MPH if intent on doing harm could reach its target in most cases before any type of military interception could be done and if flying much faster 200+mph it would be virtually impossible to do an intercept, assessment and engage. I’m not degrading our military pilots they are some of the best in the world and I have the greatest respect and envy for them. It is just plain physics. The interceptions are doable because the person did not know they were in a TFR (wrong as it may be) and they were just flying along fat dumb and happy.

Paraphrasing on of the founding fathers of our country “he who gives up liberty for safety will have neither”

[M016576]

...and what kind of aircraft were used in those attacks? And are they affected by TFRs? Try again.

This is my last post on this matter: the responses I'm drawing are far too heated and irrational for me to continue fielding them. I guess everybody needs something to complain about. Some choose the weather, some choose TFRs.

The price of aviation safety is abiding by airspace control measures. What would happen to GA should a GA aircraft laden with explosives hit a large public gathering? Or a VIP?

It seems to me like the response here is "can't happen and TFRs won't help." I disagree, but then again I'm on the other side of the fence: part of my job is keeping the skies over America safe from the cockpit of a fighter.

Like I said, clearly I'm wrong, you guys seem to have it all doped out about what is and isn't important.

Important. Single engine private aircraft owners ocassional convenience.

Not important. Safety of world leaders. Safety of families on ground. Your own safety.

In closing: I love my mooney. I love flying GA and the freedom it affords. If a TFR gets in my way, I go around it and am thankful for the excuse for extra flight time. If I transit a MOA, I check if its active and if so, contact the controlling agency for updates / or potentially following if available. That's how I roll. You do what you want.

[201er]

It seems to me like the response here is "can't happen and TFRs won't help." I disagree, but then again I'm on the other side of the fence: part of my job is keeping the skies over America safe from the cockpit of a fighter.

I think you're missing the point. It CAN happen but there is no way a TFR could stop it. Why should we all pay the price for something that could happen regardless of the existence of this rule called a TFR when we wouldn't be the ones to ever dream of doing something like that?

The 3 mile TFR around sporting events or the UN for example. How long would it take an innocent seeming aircraft with nefarious causes to cross the distance and do harm? At 180mph, easy for a Mooney perhaps in a dive for other planes, it would only take 1 minute. Neither the rule nor a fighter could ever stop a rogue plane from doing this so what is the validity of wasting so much resources creating and enforcing this rule? Thus far a TFR has never been maliciously broken, yet how many pilots have had enforcement action over flying into one unaware?

Like I said, clearly I'm wrong, you guys seem to have it all doped out about what is and isn't important.

Except you don't make any rational sense. We're not disagreeing with you about MOAs and applying a similar approach to most TFRs would make tremendous sense. I don't think most pilots object to rules that keep them or others safe but this just isn't the case with many (perhaps not all, but many) TFRs.

In closing: I love my mooney. I love flying GA and the freedom it affords. If a TFR gets in my way, I go around it and am thankful for the excuse for extra flight time.

But see, you don't even understand the kinds of TFRs others of us have to deal with. They make 30 mile TFRs here that block off dozens of GA airports here for VFR and IFR with extreme delays. If it was just for the moment Air Force 1 were landing, ok, but no... this TFRs go on for the entire duration that the President is in the vicinity of this city. Why does a VFR pilot in a 172 pose such a severe threat but a TBM or Biz Jet IFR does not? There is a rational contradiction here that you seem to refuse to see.

[bd32322]

Also I never understood the reason for the vice presidential residence TFR - which is about 1500 AGL - whats the point of that?

I came close to violating it so many times - it happens to sit squarely in between an enroute VOR (MXE) and the wilmington airport (ILG) - so its natural to follow the VOR outbound and violate the airspace.

A supposed terrorist could dive through 1500 feet in about a few seconds.. (I am sure next time I go there - this TFR will be up to 18k feet and 30 miles)

Since I go to Wilmington often - I am seriously thinking of voting against him - just to get rid of the pesky TFR - lol

[bd32322]

for a while i was afriad TFRs will be come status symbols for the govt officials - your importance is judged by the size of your TFR over your house

[Cruiser]

while I hate to heard about a TFR being violated, and the frequency of their use is excessive, I have always thought that the TFR was useful in keeping the innocent out of the way so that IF someone is actually a threat it is easier and quicker to determine. i.e. if no one is suppose to be here and someone is, they become the focus of all attention rather than trying to watch for and monitor which of the many aircraft moving throught the area COULD pose a threat.

As for MOAs ....... there are way too many of those!

[fantom]

This is my last post on this matter: the responses I'm drawing are far too heated and irrational for me to continue fielding them. I guess everybody needs something to complain about. Some choose the weather, some choose TFRs.

You lost me there, Captain....seems like you were also whining. In my experience arguing at the extremes, "all or nothing" is a losing effort.

Important. Single engine private aircraft owners ocassional convenience.

Not important. Safety of world leaders. Safety of families on ground. Your own safety.

From my perspective, a bit smug and condesending. I've done a fair amount of fighter practice, and playing, in MOA's. When it got serious, we went to restricted areas. Heck, almost all of AZ is a MOA.

In closing: I love my mooney. I love flying GA and the freedom it affords. If a TFR gets in my way, I go around it and am thankful for the excuse for extra flight time. If I transit a MOA, I check if its active and if so, contact the controlling agency for updates / or potentially following if available.

As I suspect most here do. I believe you're reading more into people's comments than they are actually saying. The debate, IMHO, is about the overuse of TFR's by too many politicians...and their wives'

[danb35]

Not important. Safety of world leaders. Safety of families on ground. Your own safety.

VIP TFRs, which were the subject of this thread, have nothing to do with pilots' safety, nor with the safety of families on the ground. You brought up 9/11 as justification, but as I pointed out, 9/11 had nothing to do with GA--it was accomplished with airliners, which aren't affected by the TFRs.

VIP TFRs could potentially have something to do with the safety of some world leaders--if there were some credible threat to them that was specific to GA. But there isn't. Ryder trucks, loaded with explosives, have been used for terrorist attacks on public buildings and officials, but we don't restrict where they can drive, or block them from a city when the President is in town. Airliners were used in the largest terrorist attack in U.S. history, but we don't ground them when the VP is around. GA has never been used for a terrorist attack in the U.S., but we ground them for 20 miles, and restrict them for 60.

[FloridaMan]

Simply put, creating a "no fly" zone for a period longer than is minimally necessary to keep aircraft out of the area when a VIP is landing or departing goes against our rights to travel. It's the equivalent of shutting down the I-95 corridor and the Turnpike for the days while the president is visiting.

[DXB]

I was out flying yesterday and heard Philly Approach call at least two planes on 121.5 (N4794M and N64919) for violating the Wilmington Presidential TFR  in the span of 20 minutes.  I think ADS-b out has changed this game because ATC can try to contact by call sign even if not talking to them already.  They were told simply to "contact Philly approach on XXX.XX or exit the TFR immediately." I think if given the option, I would just do the latter and then get the NASA report filed as fast as possible .  At least one plane responded.  I didn't hear anything from an F16 on guard. 

But it's hard for me to fathom messing up this way given all the digital information we have instantly accessible now both on the ground and in the air. I'm pretty much monitoring 121.5 at all times these days however given the weekly proximity of these large TFRs.

Edited September 12, 2021 by DXB