Minimum Cloud Ceiling to Launch VFR for Aerial IFR Pick Up (poll)

[Ibra]

On 11/12/2025 at 8:48 PM, MatthiasArnold said:

but over here in Germany you have to stay in VMC until reaching at least MRVA (which is not officially documented, depends on time of the year (higher in winter) and, to my personal experience, on the ATC controller

Hopefully this helps, it’s in AIP ENR6

https://aip.dfs.de/BasicIFR/2025OCT30/chapter/7a3603080f6ec51d7446e0388eebe313.html

This one is from Jun2025, it works for summer, it will gets updated next month with +1000ft in winter for places that are less than 0C, obviously, the chart assumes that the ATC one talk to is “radar dude” not an “airway dude”….

I don’t recall I ever saw “nationwide MVA/MIA chart” published elsewhere, except in Germany (in France and US, they are not published, you can bundle and join terminal vectoring charts but lot of blocks in lower airspace will be missing)
 

 

 

Edited November 14 by Ibra

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

One curious question, do ATC in US allow SVFR departure with tower ATC followed by IFR pickup from area ATC? say daylight flight and one has the required +1sm visibility in Delta, Charlie, or Bravo airport

Yes, that's kind of what SVFR is for, to get in the air and away from the airport where conditions might be better.    You can't go anywhere you're not cleared or legal to fly, regardless of how you got there.   FWIW, Part 91 airplanes (i.e., us), can take off in zero-zero, as long as you are legal wherever you go from there.    There's a video somewhere of a Columbia taking off from Stellar Airpark, which is uncontrolled/untowered, in essentially zero-zero.   I tried to find it but couldn't.

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

Assuming the ceiling is broken with plenty of holes, can one climb straight away into Delta, Charlie, Bravo? or they have to leave airport zone “laterally” with SVFR scud run (follow roads under ceiling) before climbing into General Echo airspace?

Asking for a friend 

You can't go anywhere that you need a clearance without one, regardless of how you got there.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Yes, that's kind of what SVFR is for, to get in the air and away from the airport where conditions might be better

So technically, you can climb SVFR on top of cloud layer (broken ceiling), fly VFR on-top before picking IFR overhead airport? rather than miles away !

I had situation where SVFR climb overhead airport was refused, only lateral exit was allowed: SVFR clearance was only “cleared to leave zone” (later clarified as not above 1500ft, while I was looking for a climb to 3000ft), so I end up leaving airport zone laterally at 1500ft before climbing VFR and picking IFR (like one does from any uncontrolled airport).

How high one can climb on SVFR clearance? assuming there is no separation conflict between IFR/SVFR in the vicinity of airport. Sometimes conditions are far better on top when cloud layer is broken (5-7 oktas) and shallow (500ft-1500ft tick).

I did not dare asking for “cancel SVFR” once in the air 

 

 

 

Edited November 15 by Ibra

[Jackk]

That vastly depends on when ATC could pick me up on the radio 

[Will.iam]

On 11/14/2025 at 4:16 PM, Ibra said:

One curious question, do ATC in US allow SVFR departure with tower ATC followed by IFR pickup from area ATC? say daylight flight and one has the required +1sm visibility in Delta, Charlie, or Bravo airport

Assuming the ceiling is broken with plenty of holes, can one climb straight away into Delta, Charlie, Bravo? or they have to leave airport zone “laterally” with SVFR scud run (follow roads under ceiling) before climbing into General Echo airspace?

Asking for a friend 

If the field has a tower then they can open your clearance with center. If tower is closed then pickup clearance with center or if radio reception is bad call for the clearance. It’s usually climb runway heading up to radar’s minimum vectoring altitude (say 4000ft) call center on this freq. squawk xxxx t/o by xx:xx zulu time void if not off by xx:xx zulu which is usually 5 mins after the t/o time. 

[Ibra]

7 hours ago, Will.iam said:

It’susually climb runway heading up to radar’s minimum vectoring altitude (say 4000ft) call center on this freq. squawk xxxx t/o by xx:xx zulu time void if not off by xx:xx zulu which is usually 5 mins after the t/o time. 

Indeed, I know in US you can get clearance on the ground by phone (“void clearance” as it’s usually a 5min or 10min slot to join controlled airspace via some fix or at vectoring altitude via runway heading).

Being able to phone call and get climb on runway heading under IFR (including IMC) from untowered airfields is one of the key difference between US ATC and many other places in Europe (where VFR climb is required while TWR ATC are not around)

I am still curious what is the clearance limit in terms of height or altitude for SVFR departure from towered airports?

If it’s overcast ceiling, I assume someone under SVFR will be limited to climb at typical IFR vectoring altitude (e.g. MVA/MIA) or IFR procedure altitude (e.g. FAF platform)? or 1000ft bellow these if SVFR is positively separated from IFR above by ATC. This is also the typical ceiling where ATC would allow IFR visual approach or IFR visual departure. So, I would think that is a good ceiling to plan VFR departure when in-flight visibility > 3sm

If there are big holes (2sm radius) in the ceiling above, say broken ceiling with 5-7 oktas, then one can climb to top of clouds, fly “on top” with VFR cruise or pickup IFR.

So, I would say for VFR departure with in-flight visibility > 3sm:

* If I am departing VFR in overcast ceiling with no holes, I would like to have it higher than vectoring MVA (MIA), or FAF altitude of some procedure, or MEA of some nearby airway, this will guarantee IFR pick up.

* If I am departing VFR in broken ceiling with big holes and gaps overhead, I can climb VFR irrespective of ceiling. I would be happy to climb in any ceiling, even BKN002 hole will do for VFR.

Lot depends on terrain and how to plan a return in case of emergency and if I am familiar with the place, there is no size that fits all.

Obviously, on can fly low VFR or low VSFR “contact departure” with ridiculous low ceilings: the "contact departure" does not exist in ATC jargon (unlike "contact approach") but let's give it a name for the shake of this topic, the name is derived from “ground physical contact” not “ground visual contact”  as life expectancy tend to shrink a lot with this kind of low flying (even cubs and helicopters gets it wrong !), someone who is IFR rated and IFR equipped tend to climb 1000ft above obstacles and call ATC for IFR clearance ASAP (hitting soft clouds is still better than hitting obstacles).

Edited Monday at 09:25 AM by Ibra

[midlifeflyer]

I said “over 2000” because BTDT. As I found out (and should have realized), when ceilings are low enough for “actual” IFR, ATC is busier and there are more IFR ops.

So there I was, flying circuits around the airport for at least 10 minutes until they could fit me in. The other airplane waiting, on the ground, got out first. 

[Z W]

A tip that I didn't realize until I'd been flying IFR for a while - 

You can file IFR off any fix, not just an airport. So your flight plan can begin at a VOR, or anywhere else, and you pick it up from the nearest ARTCC frequency when you get there. Some possible use cases:

Leaving Oshkosh this is recommended as you can't pick up IFR at the field. They give several recommended fixes to file from depending on your direction of travel. I should have done that this year and didn't, ended up having to call and get a pop-up clearance to get home when there were clouds where they weren't forecasted to be.

Leaving a busy airport in VFR conditions, but headed into IFR conditions later in the flight. You can skip the "hold for release" delays and mandatory obstacle departure procedures you may not want to fly in clear weather. If you haven't experienced these, you will if you ever fly in Bravos, especially on the east coast, or in the mountains. Controllers seem to like it and will often let you skip the line and depart quickly VFR.

Taking off somewhere where you want to do a scenic tour or circle around a bit, then head to your destination.

Now with Starlink you can even file mid-flight off a fix somewhere along your route and pick it up when you get there.

To answer the main question, I don't do much taking off in near-IMC conditions expecting to get a clearance. I'd much rather call ATC on my cell phone if I can't reach them on the radio and sit tight on the ground until cleared. Not much fun bouncing around below the clouds, staring at the ground not very far below you, looking for towers, and waiting for them to give you a clearance, while hoping no traffic comes along that you're supposed to see and avoid.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Z W said:

A tip that I didn't realize until I'd been flying IFR for a while - 

You can file IFR off any fix, not just an airport. So your flight plan can begin at a VOR, or anywhere else, and you pick it up from the nearest ARTCC frequency when you get there

I did this years ago - like before cell phones  

A suggestion from the guys at Opposing Bases: when you want to do a remote in-air pickup, use an airport rather than a fix. I don’t recall their reasons, but one I can think of, is that you know that you will be calling the correct facility - ARTCC or TRACON as applicable - and they will have it.  Might also be a head-scratcher for some controllers.

 

[Ibra]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

A suggestion from the guys at Opposing Bases: when you want to do a remote in-air pickup, use an airport rather than a fix. I don’t recall their reasons, but one I can think of, is that you know that you will be calling the correct facility - ARTCC or TRACON as applicable - and they will have it.  Might also be a head-scratcher for some controllers.

One reason is probably how IFR FPL are distributed to area ATC or sector ATC (ARTCC & TRACON)? 

If you are using a feeder route fix or airway fix, they should get it 

If you are using some aiport fix, some of them are not even on area ATC screen (especially, "local waypoints" or "local VOR").

If you are using the airport itself, the coverage should be easy.

If you are using some computer navigation fix (CNF) from some Jeppsen database, or you are using some visual point, or you are using radial/distance to VOR/DME. I assume some software is stuck parsing it, let alone distributing to the right ATC 

A bit off topic on filing flight plans in the correct format, I was stuck after my flight cancelled because someone forced a dodgy flight plan with an odd waypoint (the engineers who would fix it were also stuck by cancelled flights) 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68563068

How comes one FPL can cause such catastrophic failure, apparently, it was a flight that switched to Zulu flight plan (VFR and IFR) after getting a delay, ATC forced the flight plan and the system crashed...

 

Edited Monday at 04:24 PM by Ibra

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

One reason is probably how IFR FPL are distributed to area ATC or sector ATC (ARTCC & TRACON)? 

That's what I meant by 

 

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

you know that you will be calling the correct facility - ARTCC or TRACON as applicable - and they will have it.