Montana topic: Bill to oppose non-safety/navigational use of ADS-B data

[dkkim73]

Hi All, 

Since we don't have fine-grained region forums and this is not clearly "West Coast" I am posting in the general forum. 

Montana has a proposed house bill to prevent use of public ADS-B data for other than safety and navigational purposes. Ie. to prevent fee-based bottom-feeding. 

https://bills.legmt.gov/#/laws/bill/2/LC4174?open_tab=sum

For those of us in this jurisdiction, it would be a good time to weigh in. 

David

 

Tagging people with MT connections, pass on to anyone I'm missing... 

@Dialed In  @NewMoon @Fritz1

 

Here is the email from AOPA Advocacy: 

-----

Dear David,

We need your help to SUPPORT Montana House bill 571 (MT H 571) which aims to prohibit use of ADS-B technology for imposing aviation-related fees. Your voice will be critical to helping the bill pass the Montana House Transportation Committee on Wednesday, February 26 at 3:00PM MT.

To take action, please call or email the Chair of the Montana House Transportation Committee to express your support as follows:

Honorable Neil Duram

Chair, Montana House Transportation Committee

Tel: 406-471-2356

E: Neil.Duram@legmt.gov

Recommended subject line: Prohibit ADS-B Uses Other Than for Safety and Efficiency

Recommended Text:

Dear Chair Duram:

On Wednesday, Feb 26 your committee will be hearing MT H 571 regarding prohibited uses of ADS-B technology. As a Montana resident, I am requesting that your committee support prohibiting all uses of ADS-B technology in the state of Montana (other than as needed to support aviation safety and efficiency). Thank you for supporting this effort.

****************************

MT H 571 prohibits any division of government or a private company or corporation from using information broadcast or collected by automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast systems, whether that data originates from ADS-B In or ADS-B Out, as a means for calculating, generating, and collecting fees from aircraft owners or operators who operate aircraft within the geographic boundaries of the state of Montana.

Your fellow pilots are counting on you to contact your Chair Duram quickly and urge him to SUPPORT Montana House Bill 571 to eliminate the use of ADS-B in the state of Montana for purposes other than necessary for safety and efficiency.

Thank you,

AOPA Regional Affairs Advocacy Team 

***This inbox is unmonitored so any responses will go unanswered.  For questions or concerns, please contact Northwest Mountain Region Manager Brad Schuster at brad.schuster@aopa.org.
 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

It should be a federal law.

[dkkim73]

3 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It should be a federal law.

Amen, amen and again I say amen. 

[shawnd]

I am liking this state  maybe they should take on the G100UL battle as well.

[A64Pilot]

Fl uses Flightaware to enforce tax, my problem with that is Flight aware gets a lot of their data from people who build Rasberry Pi receivers and upload it.

Is that a credible source for a Government identity to use? They should not use a Commercial entity that gets its data from questionable sources, should only use FAA sources in my opinion.

[A64Pilot]

56 minutes ago, shawnd said:

I am liking this state  maybe they should take on the G100UL battle as well.

My aircraft is Registered in Montanna under an LLC just because I don’t like flying around broadcasting my identity. Montanna has a lot going for it, just too cold for me or I would live there. When I was playing bush flying I was a member of their Recreational Aircraft Foundation.

Worth looking into for those so inclined, I like their mission

https://theraf.org

[slowflyin]

AOPA only supported the ADSB mandate after receiving assurances from the FAA that it would not be used for anything but safety and navigation.  Seems like this is a reasonable bill.

[PeteMc]

DON'T YELL AT THE MESSENGER....

Just pointing out that at the Airport I was based out of for a few decades (KFRG) had the Ops people sitting in the window listing to the Twr/CTAF and with binoculars to make sure they got the N# for the landing fee.  If it was night and they didn't hear the N# and couldn't read it, they drove out on the ramp.   

KFRG is a NY State Airport.  The Landing Fees are unlikely to go away.  So my tax dollars were paying for this extra person to sit there with all the benefits and overhead above the salary.  So the technology, IF DONE CORRECTLY, would save NY State residents money. 

Also, over the decades, there are a LOT of Airports that started charging Landing Fees that had nothing to do with ADS-B, so by blocking using ADS-B is not going to stop the landing fees, if anything, it is going to add the cost into the fee to do it manually. 

AGAIN, before you jump on me, think about it.  Are the fees in MT, or anywhere else, going to stop because of the ban on ADS-B use for tracking landings at an Apt? 

As for Vector and the incorrect billing I've heard occasionally happens, I'd rather see a Bill that allowed me to charge for my time to correct that billing error!!  As we're not going to stop the fees.  Or maybe a Bill that required them to include a Pic of my plane actually ON the Runway included on the invoice.

[pwnel]

28 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

AGAIN, before you jump on me, think about it.  Are the fees in MT, or anywhere else, going to stop because of the ban on ADS-B use for tracking landings at an Apt? 

Yes, you make good points.  

I started blocking my ADSB data when, during the early stages of COVID-19, certain states would block you from entering if you're from New York.  Remember that?  They had state trooper roadblocks in Rhode Island looking for out-of-state cars.  FBOs would give you issues depending on where your flight originated from. I personally experienced this as I was flying around the country in June/July 2020.  Big Brother. 

So I don't mind the landing fees.  But the Feds went back on an agreement where AOPA rightfully only agreed to the mandate provided the data isn't abused.  Which is exactly what is happening now (again).  For example, I have no problem if they used a camera "number plate recognition" equivalent system at an airport to also get my billing details.  But that doesn't tell you where I came from and where I'm going.  

PS: given how much Elon Musk fought against his private jet ADSB data being public - I'm pretty damn sure he's on the same side here.... our AOPA lobbyists just need to have the right conversation at a Federal level.  

 

[PeteMc]

18 minutes ago, pwnel said:

But the Feds went back on an agreement where AOPA rightfully only agreed to the mandate provided the data isn't abused.  Which is exactly what is happening now (again).

Now that's a reason for the Bill in MT or anywhere else.  And as someone else said, it should be a Fed law.  

I've seen a bunch of thread pop up in all sorts or groups yelling and screaming about Vector being a "fee-based bottom-feeding" (sorry @dkkim73 ) because...  They used technology to offer State, Co. City or whomever, a less expensive way to process their Landing Fees that they were going to send out anyway.  And they used ADS-B because, sorry folks, they CAN.  

So the issue should be the first part of what dkkim73 pointed out "...prevent use of public ADS-B data for other than safety and navigational purposes..." and everyone should just stay away from the Landing Fees and Vector.  That's just going to be "whining" in the view of those you want to get onboard to get behind any kind of ADS-B Bills throughout the States or Fed.  And again, one big downside is that it is States, Cos & City governments that are probably the biggest clients of any company that wants to help with Landing Fees or any other kinds of billing in the future.  There are a number of people in our Gov... and close associates  that would love nothing more than to privatize ATC.  So that ATC billing MIGHT be because you flew through someone's airspace as in other parts of the world.  This is nothing new, they've been talking about it for years.  But now they're in a position to potentially do it. (It's a shame how MOST of them (any side, any time) talk a great talk, then change when they get in "power." Then the few that are there to really do good, get rolled over.)

[dkkim73]

[A64Pilot]

I have been flying a long time and with the exception of when I flew in Canada I have never paid any kind of airport or other use fee, beyond taxes of course. I have paid fees in Central and S America too now that I think about it.

Why do NY airports need to collect fees if every other State I’ve flown in doesn’t?

But besides that what shouldn’t happen and I can’t understand why it is, but why is ADSB data publicly available? How does that increase safety? For those that don’t understand basically that’s the FAA mantra if you will, increase safety, and it should be, but if something they do doesn’t increase safety, then there is a logical question of why are they doing it?

Or another point if ADSB data is, why isn’t all the toll roads etc data not? Why am I allowed to look up an N number and get all the owners information, but not for an automobile tag?

Why is our privacy in our automobiles protected but we are not in our aircraft?

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Why do NY airports need to collect fees if every other State I’ve flown in doesn’t?

I'm guessing you may not have flown that many places or only smaller airports.  Or you've been damn lucky!   

But in addition to NY I can actually pull up "landing fee" since the late 90 from: CA, MA, MD, MT, NH & TX.  And I know I've paid landing fees in MULTIPLE other states, but it was just on the fuel bill and I didn't break it out.  The ones I'm reasonably certain of are AZ, CO, IL, WY and maybe SD.  I haven't paid any here in WA yet, but I have heard of a few airports that do charge them (BFI I believe is one).   

And I'm excluding the large Airports, I paid over $1,600 when I had to make an emergency landing at JFK when I lost a cylinder.  I don't remember what the Landing Fee portion of that was, but it was up there.  It may have been over $100 and I think partially because of the time of day I landed.  The rest was Ramp and Service Fees for the time the plane was there while the mechanic figured out what was wrong, order the parts and then do the repairs so I could fly out.  And if I remember correctly, they even cut me a break.  

Regretfully with so many St/Co/Cities cutting their budgets, fees have popped up at a lot of airports.  Many are waved if you buy fuel or they are only a couple of bucks, so if you don't actually look at the fuel bill closely, it blends in with the other taxes and you may not notice it.  I remember a Ramp fee in TX that was pretty high, maybe $8, and the FBO said it was the city's fee, not theirs and they could not wave it. 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I landed at a Vector airport (KIFP) a couple of weeks ago. It is a beautiful airport and dead as a door nail. The shuttle driver went off on a rant about how the city counsel has not only nickel and dimed GA to death, they chased away most of the airlines.