Challenge!!! Can You Define A "Short Approach" **WITH** FAA Documentation!!!

[PeteMc]

So I'm expanding a question brought up in a FB Group that I am SURE my fellow MOONEYacks can solve!....

The initial post was a recording where we heard a Twr Controller chastising a Pilot for not doing the "Short Approach" that he had requested correctly.  There was the usual banter where the Controller said she "Googled" that a "Short Approach" should start BEFORE the end of the Rwy (e.g. the plane in the Downwind should NOT go past the threshold of the Approach End of the Rwy).  So... I also Googled it and found what she was saying, but I also did a bit of research and CAN NOT FIND an FAA definition of a "Short Approach" anywhere. 

ATC's .65 states: "...MAKE SHORT APPROACH− Used by ATC to inform a pilot to alter his/her traffic pattern so as to make a short final approach.
(See TRAFFIC PATTERN.)..."

The AIM states: "...MAKE SHORT APPROACH− Used by ATC to inform a pilot to alter his/her traffic pattern so as to make a short final approach.
(See TRAFFIC PATTERN.)..." 

But I've searched a number of FAA Docs and so far I cannot find a definition of a Short Approach. Can anyone else? And I mean a REAL FAA DEFINITION, not one of the many user interpretations on Reddit, Pilot's of America, any of the videos or AI's canned replies, etc., etc.  

I will admit after looking into this that my personal definition of a "Short Approach" or basically what I've flown when Instructed or Requested a Short Approach was a cross between a Power Off 180 and some of the other NON OFFICIAL definitions of doing the Approach "shorter than normal."  

So okay guys and gals, do me proud!!!   Who can find it buried in some old Doc that got dropped in the latest releases that define a Short Approach!!  And barring that... who can tell me how do you officially request a Legal Interpretation from the FAA?

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by PeteMc

[midlifeflyer]

How about

"A short approach is executed when the pilot makes an abbreviated downwind, base, and final legs turning inside of the standard 45-degree base turn. This can be requested at a towered airport for aircraft spacing, but is more commonly used at a non-towered airport or a part-time-towered airport when the control tower is not operating, when landing with a simulated engine out or completing a power-off 180-degree accuracy approach commercial-rating maneuver." – AC90-66B Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations (2018).

But the AIM definition - adjusting the pattern to create a shorter than normal final segment - has always worked fine for me. I don't feel the same need some do to have every word in the English dictionary bear a regulatory definition.

[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, midlifeflyer said:

How about

"A short approach is executed when the pilot makes an abbreviated downwind, base, and final legs turning inside of the standard 45-degree base turn. This can be requested at a towered airport for aircraft spacing, but is more commonly used at a non-towered airport or a part-time-towered airport when the control tower is not operating, when landing with a simulated engine out or completing a power-off 180-degree accuracy approach commercial-rating maneuver." – AC90-66B Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations

But the AIM definition - adjusting the pattern to create a shorter than normal final segment - has always worked fine for me. I don't feel the same need some do to have every word in the English dictionary bear a regulatory definition. 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I had an issue with this once. It caused me to scrub the FAR-AIM for guidance. There is none. When I was talking to the FAA on the phone, they couldn't cite anything regulatory either. 

BTW, the FAA didn't have a issue with me, but this Yahoo in the runup area called the FAA and said I was flying unsafely. The tower tapes had the tower requesting the short approach and then thanking me for doing it. I considered it a good time to practice the plane is on fire drill and did fly my base over the 7R runup area at KDVT.

[whiskytango]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I considered it a good time to practice the plane is on fire drill and did fly my base over the 7R runup area at KDVT.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This.  I was once asked by ATC to do a short approach for high speed traffic on extended final.  Flying the mighty C-150, abeam the numbers I dropped all 40 degrees of manual flaps, turned base, dove at max flap speed and did a forward slip rolling out on final.  On a draggy plane like a C-150 it is amazing how fast you can get on the ground.  ATC appreciated it.

[N201MKTurbo]

I would hesitate asking the FAA for an interpretation. As it is, it is anything we say it is. If they codify it, will it be another skill we have to demonstrate on our checkrides? 

[PeteMc]

8 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

But the AIM definition - adjusting the pattern to create a shorter than normal final segment -

Again, not looking for a "How about" kind of answer.   So can you site a FAA source for the quote?  It looks like one of the many UNofficial definitions I found searching the Web.

And can you give me a specific Section/Paragraph for where you found your above AIM definition?  I just searched for "shorter than normal" and it does not exist in my April 20, 2023 copy of the AIM or the October Changes. 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by PeteMc

[midlifeflyer]

9 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Again, not looking for a "How about" kind of answer.   So can you site a FAA source for the quote?  It looks like one of the many UNofficial definitions I found searching the Web.

And can you give me a specific Section/Paragraph for where you found your above AIM definition?  I just searched for "shorter than normal" and it does not exist in my April 20, 2023 copy of the AIM or the October Changes. 

 

Sorry. Not the Aim. The Pilot Controller Glossary under “make short approach.” And I also cited the AC.

[PeteMc]

7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I was talking to the FAA on the phone, they couldn't cite anything regulatory either. 

How long ago?  Obviously the FSDO didn't pass it on that they couldn't find a definition of something we're supposed to do. 

And similar to @whiskytango I got asked to do a Short Approach for faster bigger traffic going into the other Rwy at Danbury, CT (KDXR).  That Apt is nestled into some hills, the WORST place you could think of to put an Apt!!  The usual Right DW to Rwy 35 was to fly along the ridge to where it flattened out a little then turn your Base so that you could then turn Final INTO the valley that eventually ended at Rwy 35.  So when they asked if I could do it, it was more of the Power Off 180, but it was a curving descent down along the valley walls being sure NOT to fly through the Center Line to the other side of the valley.  Fun approach.

 

[PeteMc]

2 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The Pilot Controller Glossary under “make short approach.”

Got it.  But then the issue comes up with the Controller I heard on the tape where she thought you HAD TO do it before the end of the Rwy.  So we're back to the fact that there is no definition.  And it's not going to stop me from doing it how I want to, but it's just one of those fun (to me) things in the Regs that would be fun to find an answer.  But I think it really was just missed by everyone.

 

[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, PeteMc said:

Got it.  But then the issue comes up with the Controller I heard on the tape where she thought you HAD TO do it before the end of the Rwy.  So we're back to the fact that there is no definition.  And it's not going to stop me from doing it how I want to, but it's just one of those fun (to me) things in the Regs that would be fun to find an answer.  But I think it really was just missed by everyone.

 

Yes, I saw the FB thread. Just a controller who was wrong.

[N201MKTurbo]

13 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

How long ago?  Obviously the FSDO didn't pass it on that they couldn't find a definition of something we're supposed to do. 

And similar to @whiskytango I got asked to do a Short Approach for faster bigger traffic going into the other Rwy at Danbury, CT (KDXR).  That Apt is nestled into some hills, the WORST place you could think of to put an Apt!!  The usual Right DW to Rwy 35 was to fly along the ridge to where it flattened out a little then turn your Base so that you could then turn Final INTO the valley that eventually ended at Rwy 35.  So when they asked if I could do it, it was more of the Power Off 180, but it was a curving descent down along the valley walls being sure NOT to fly through the Center Line to the other side of the valley.  Fun approach.

 

My incident probably happened in about 1998 or so. It was in my M20F and it has been gone since 2003.

You need to come out west to find airports with interesting terrain. Try Aspen CO, or Truckee CA.

[M20F]

Short approach, that’s what she said…