Look up damage history?

[wombat]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Whether or not a 337 is required is up to the maintainer, so that is a highly uneven standard.   An awful lot of stuff that gets repaired doesn't even get logged, let alone put on a 337.    This is just the reality of GA. 

Still, logbook inspection is a good place to start when considering a prospective airplane purchase, since conscientious owners and maintainers do often keep good records.   It's just not a certainty.   Inspection of the airframe is still the best bet, since even if there are good records, including a detailed 337, they may not reflect the quality or completeness of the actual work done.

All that's true.   And I'll still say that I'll call anything that requires a 337 'damage history' and other stuff isn't.    Yes, that makes my definition highly uneven too. 

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

There is also the question of what makes something 'damage history'.... If as a completely random example, someone were to run my plane off the side of a runway and a bush tears one of the gear doors off, does that count?   What about if the damage is exclusively on the gear door itself and they replace it?   There is no damaged part on the plane.   What about if the plane regularly lands on grass and after 5 years of this the A&P says "The gear door attach holes are worn out, we need to get a new gear door."... Is that damage history? 

Personally I'd call any single event that requires a 337 to repair 'damage history', but that's just me personally.

I always thought "damage history" applied to damaged and repaired parts that are still on the airplane, but if everything is replaced then there's no "history" remaining.

A gear up landing will leave some damaged and repaired formers above the belly, especially if a 1-piece conversion is done afterwards, but a broken nose gear can be replaced and there's no damage to the plane as it sits now as long as nothing else hit the ground [like the nose gear doors, cowling, etc.]. In the last instance, the prop may hit the ground, requiring replacement of at least one blade if not the whole thing, and an engine teardown, but again, everything damaged is replaced, so what "history" is there?

[Andy95W]

A 337 is required for a “Major Repair”, which is defined by the following:

———————— 

(b) Major repairs—(1) Airframe major repairs. Repairs to the following parts of an airframe and repairs of the following types, involving the strengthening, reinforcing, splicing, and manufacturing of primary structural members or their replacement, when replacement is by fabrication such as riveting or welding, are airframe major repairs. 

(i) Box beams. 

(ii) Monocoque or semimonocoque wings or control surfaces. 

(iii) Wing stringers or chord members. 

(iv) Spars. 

(v) Spar flanges. 

(vi) Members of truss-type beams. 

(vii) Thin sheet webs of beams. 

(viii) Keel and chine members of boat hulls or floats. 

(ix) Corrugated sheet compression members which act as flange material of wings or tail surfaces. 

(x) Wing main ribs and compression members. 

(xi) Wing or tail surface brace struts. 

(xii) Engine mounts. 

(xiii) Fuselage longerons. 

(xiv) Members of the side truss, horizontal truss, or bulkheads. 

(xv) Main seat support braces and brackets. 

(xvi) Landing gear brace struts. 

(xvii) Axles. 

(xviii) Wheels. 

(xix) Skis, and ski pedestals. 

(xx) Parts of the control system such as control columns, pedals, shafts, brackets, or horns. 

(xxi) Repairs involving the substitution of material. 

(xxii) The repair of damaged areas in metal or plywood stressed covering exceeding six inches in any direction. 

(xxiii) The repair of portions of skin sheets by making additional seams. 

(xxiv) The splicing of skin sheets. 

(xxv) The repair of three or more adjacent wing or control surface ribs or the leading edge of wings and control surfaces, between such adjacent ribs. 

(xxvi) Repair of fabric covering involving an area greater than that required to repair two adjacent ribs. 

(xxvii) Replacement of fabric on fabric covered parts such as wings, fuselages, stabilizers, and control surfaces. 

(xxviii) Repairing, including rebottoming, of removable or integral fuel tanks and oil tanks.

[EricJ]

19 minutes ago, Hank said:

I always thought "damage history" applied to damaged and repaired parts that are still on the airplane, but if everything is replaced then there's no "history" remaining.

A gear up landing will leave some damaged and repaired formers above the belly, especially if a 1-piece conversion is done afterwards, but a broken nose gear can be replaced and there's no damage to the plane as it sits now as long as nothing else hit the ground [like the nose gear doors, cowling, etc.]. In the last instance, the prop may hit the ground, requiring replacement of at least one blade if not the whole thing, and an engine teardown, but again, everything damaged is replaced, so what "history" is there?

And anything that can be repaired by part replacement, no matter how large the assembly, does not require a 337.    So if the airplane got badly mangled, but was repaired by substituting a different wing, cowl, nosegear, and stabilizer, no 337 is required.    That would also be difficult to find in an inspection if the substitute parts were in good shape, and if the logbook entry got thrown out or lost (or never made), there'd be little way to tell.   But if it was properly done it also wouldn't likely matter.    

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Like said above, don't be the guy that staples everything in the logbook.  That's what my older log books look like.  Sure I could clean them up; you win on that one.  I started new logs a few years ago.  My mechanic told me what to keep and what not to keep in the books; the new ones are very clean and would be easy to scan.  Side step...  how do you get comfortable with a plane that's had several gear related incidents for example without seeing the details of the previous damage and perhaps even photos.  There's a really well equipped one for sale now but it's had three gear related incidents; how do you get comfortable and how do you make others comfortable when it's time to sell.  Sure you can read that a plane went off a runway and suffered damage and you can read where a skin or rib was replaced but is that enough with a visual pre-buy inspection?  How will you ever know what loads may have been imposed on the airframe or how bad the damage really was without photos for example or some of the details that are hopefully buried in a file box.... or the details that have been conveniently discarded because you're not required to keep them.  

My oldest logs have so many things stapled in, they won't lie flat.  Nonetheless, I went through them page by page, scanned the log pages and scanned all the documents, and put them back together just the way they were.  I don't encourage anyone else to do this, nor do I defend this kind of thing as normal behavior, but I'm happy with the exact reproductions in PDF format.  My preference would be to discard all the work orders, receipts, and other documents, but only if all the data on those separate documents is captured in the log.  A log entry that says "overhauled engine" is not useful.  I would like to see model numbers, part numbers, serial numbers, and any other specifications available recorded for every part that has them.  I think some mechanics have fallen into the habit of scribbling (or these days typing) the smallest number of words they can.  I'm taking a page from Mike Busch who, if he hires someone to work on his 310, works with the mechanic on the exact wording for a sticky, and then gets a signature on the sticky -- nobody gets their hands on his logs except him.

[Fly Boomer]

6 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

A 337 is required for a “Major Repair”, which is defined by the following:

———————— 

(b) Major repairs—(1) Airframe major repairs. Repairs to the following parts of an airframe and repairs of the following types, involving the strengthening, reinforcing, splicing, and manufacturing of primary structural members or their replacement, when replacement is by fabrication such as riveting or welding, are airframe major repairs. 

(i) Box beams. 

(ii) Monocoque or semimonocoque wings or control surfaces. 

(iii) Wing stringers or chord members. 

(iv) Spars. 

(v) Spar flanges. 

(vi) Members of truss-type beams. 

(vii) Thin sheet webs of beams. 

(viii) Keel and chine members of boat hulls or floats. 

(ix) Corrugated sheet compression members which act as flange material of wings or tail surfaces. 

(x) Wing main ribs and compression members. 

(xi) Wing or tail surface brace struts. 

(xii) Engine mounts. 

(xiii) Fuselage longerons. 

(xiv) Members of the side truss, horizontal truss, or bulkheads. 

(xv) Main seat support braces and brackets. 

(xvi) Landing gear brace struts. 

(xvii) Axles. 

(xviii) Wheels. 

(xix) Skis, and ski pedestals. 

(xx) Parts of the control system such as control columns, pedals, shafts, brackets, or horns. 

(xxi) Repairs involving the substitution of material. 

(xxii) The repair of damaged areas in metal or plywood stressed covering exceeding six inches in any direction. 

(xxiii) The repair of portions of skin sheets by making additional seams. 

(xxiv) The splicing of skin sheets. 

(xxv) The repair of three or more adjacent wing or control surface ribs or the leading edge of wings and control surfaces, between such adjacent ribs. 

(xxvi) Repair of fabric covering involving an area greater than that required to repair two adjacent ribs. 

(xxvii) Replacement of fabric on fabric covered parts such as wings, fuselages, stabilizers, and control surfaces. 

(xxviii) Repairing, including rebottoming, of removable or integral fuel tanks and oil tanks.

What reg was that lifted from?

[EricJ]

46 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

What reg was that lifted from?

FAR Part 43 Appendix A.   It has the definitions for major repairs, major alterations, and preventive maintenance.   

[Mcstealth]

Thanks folks. Appreciate it. 

[Jim Peace]

My C had a gear up over half a century ago.   I bought the plane form the person who owned it that long.  There is a NTSB site that says the plane had substantial damage from that gear up.  I asked the owner about it who was a great friend and he said back in the day they were able to say things like that to get as much $$ out of the deal.  So my plane had the typical repairs like skins and engine and prop replaced with new.  Not much in the books about it but the NTSB says substantial.  I think you have to go with the consensus here and just inspect the plane.  Lots of shenanigans happened back in the day when there was a lot less tracking and accountability.

You can track my flying...it does pretty well for a plane with 50 year old substantial damage...

I think its been said here that the value of prior damage does not hurt the plane as much if it was long ago...

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

My C had a gear up over half a century ago.   I bought the plane form the person who owned it that long.  There is a NTSB site that says the plane had substantial damage from that gear up.  I asked the owner about it who was a great friend and he said back in the day they were able to say things like that to get as much $$ out of the deal.  So my plane had the typical repairs like skins and engine and prop replaced with new.  Not much in the books about it but the NTSB says substantial.  I think you have to go with the consensus here and just inspect the plane.  Lots of shenanigans happened back in the day when there was a lot less tracking and accountability.

You can track my flying...it does pretty well for a plane with 50 year old substantial damage...

I think its been said here that the value of prior damage does not hurt the plane as much if it was long ago...

Speaking of shenanigans, I know of one where there was a gear up fixed with spit, bubble gum, and non-standard parts. No NTSB report. No logbook entry at all. 

It's also a lesson on getting an independent prepurchase inspection.