Aftermarket FADEC

[hais]

Creating a poll and thread following a discussion in the Tempest thread

 

 

Inviting @takair to share their details on their prototype 

[takair]

Our current iteration of Auto-Lean has been STCd for about 8 years.  It is approved for dozens of GA aircraft.  We currently have a cert plan with the FAA to expand it to quadrant equipped aircraft and provide other enhancements.  This has been a slow process in the post COVID FAA, I can’t explain why. 

That said, the current iteration provides multiple features, including LOP, ROP and HOLD.  It is based on a single EGT probe input. I have used iterations of it for over 10 years and now use it routinely in conjunction with the SureFly ignition system. I find it to provide workload reduction and fewer distractions. 

Our original roadmap was to expand to multi cylinder EGT and then RPM and MAP.  The individual parts have been prototyped.  We have also explored O2 sensing as well as knock detection.  However, the intent was to fund the development and certification using sales of the basic Auto-Lean system.  Unfortunately, sales have not been robust, and an advanced model would simply add cost without any indication of a larger market.

As a parting story, when I was certifying Auto-Lean I met a gentleman who had developed a GA FADEC and eventually sold the company to one of the big OEMs after his own sales were not good.  He warned me that he found the FADEC market rather soft.  I suggested my system would be a fraction of the cost….but he was still sceptical about the market.  If I recall correctly, that product is no longer offered to the aftermarket and his premonition was correct.

It would be interesting to understand what people define as FADEC and how much they would be willing to pay for the product and installation?   What features are desired and what are those features worth?   

 

[hais]

47 minutes ago, takair said:

Our current iteration of Auto-Lean has been STCd for about 8 years.  It is approved for dozens of GA aircraft.  We currently have a cert plan with the FAA to expand it to quadrant equipped aircraft and provide other enhancements.  This has been a slow process in the post COVID FAA, I can’t explain why. 

That said, the current iteration provides multiple features, including LOP, ROP and HOLD.  It is based on a single EGT probe input. I have used iterations of it for over 10 years and now use it routinely in conjunction with the SureFly ignition system. I find it to provide workload reduction and fewer distractions. 

Our original roadmap was to expand to multi cylinder EGT and then RPM and MAP.  The individual parts have been prototyped.  We have also explored O2 sensing as well as knock detection.  However, the intent was to fund the development and certification using sales of the basic Auto-Lean system.  Unfortunately, sales have not been robust, and an advanced model would simply add cost without any indication of a larger market.

As a parting story, when I was certifying Auto-Lean I met a gentleman who had developed a GA FADEC and eventually sold the company to one of the big OEMs after his own sales were not good.  He warned me that he found the FADEC market rather soft.  I suggested my system would be a fraction of the cost….but he was still sceptical about the market.  If I recall correctly, that product is no longer offered to the aftermarket and his premonition was correct.

It would be interesting to understand what people define as FADEC and how much they would be willing to pay for the product and installation?   What features are desired and what are those features worth?   

 

I think today automatic engine control should be inseparable from auto-throttle coupled to a flight director or FMS. Could that work without direct support from panel manufacturers? Say, inferring what the A/P is trying to do by listening to CAN messages? 

As for value:

For folks valuing workload reduction (like in single pilot IFR), the messaging is on safety.

For clubs/flight schools worried about proper engine management, the messaging is cost reduction. 

For non-pilot spouses, we'd need big G to turn on that autoland feature - now the spouse knows they can get down in emergencies. 

[hais]

Regarding pricing, if it costs about the same as a 3-axis A/P installation, I'd buy it - if it has an FMS-coupled auto-throttle. 

[takair]

2 hours ago, hais said:

Regarding pricing, if it costs about the same as a 3-axis A/P installation, I'd buy it - if it has an FMS-coupled auto-throttle. 

In the scenario you describe, it would almost certainly have to come from the manufacturer of the autopilot.  This is because it is difficult to put an STC on top of someone else’s STC.  It is ok on a non-interference basis, but this specifically would break that rule.

My philosophy and cert basis for Auto-Lean, was that it mimics what the pilot would do to lean the engine in accordance with the flight manual.  We also used analogue and mechanical safety systems to reduce the cost of software certification.  This was effective in keeping the cost down, but limits some levels of authority.  The auto throttle that I prototyped was based on the Auto-Lean system.  The first iteration was for fixed pitch propellers to manage RPM…sort of creating a constant speed prop.  The next iteration would manage power based on airspeed, RPM and manifold pressure.  This would effectively provide airspeed hold. The key is to perform this function without getting the pilot or autopilot into oscillation.  Communication with the autopilot would certainly enhance this, but would require OEM cooperation.

As I recall, the retrofit FADEC that I mentioned was running at over $25k ten years ago.  I suspect the system you described would be that or more; given todays (lack of) market, certification costs and liability.  Even the system I described, call it a partial-authorityDEC would likely be about $10k.  

The survey results to this point generally follow my experience after over 10 years of Auto-Lean.  Even then, I think some people might wait a lifetime for the system to be proven.  The fact is, there are and have been proven systems….but then I suspect price point would be the next reason for not buying.  I suspect that results might be slightly different if you were to poll folks buying new aircraft that came only with FADEC…think diesel aircraft.

[carusoam]

I think where this becomes interesting enough to get my finance administrator’s attention….

The auto-land button needs to be connected to it…

 

God save the finance administrator…!  The plane’s health is always optional…

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F]

For me it would be what problem am I trying to solve and then what is it worth.  I can’t really think of a problem a FADEC or even auto-lean solves for me, hence why would I spend money to have it. 
 
I wish you the best of luck but really don’t see what the need is. 

[hais]

Am I too optimistic or does that poll look like a typical adoption curve? If someone were taking down a deposit @takair, let me know 

[takair]

8 hours ago, hais said:

Am I too optimistic or does that poll look like a typical adoption curve? If someone were taking down a deposit @takair, let me know 

No deposits yet, but the FAA finally responded to me on the updated Auto-Lean data package.  Of course, it means more work and more documentation….but some progress for quadrant equipped aircraft.