Log safety pilot hours?

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, PT20J said:

I would be careful with that. If you give your certificate to the FAA, they could view that as a voluntary surrender and you might not get it back.

Myth.

[midlifeflyer]

17 hours ago, rbp said:

this is not an isolated occurrence. regardless of who agrees to be PIC -- informally or in writing -- the courts the NTSB, and the FAA has ruled that the most senior pilot (and a CFI in particular) in the aircraft is responsible.  This is the Hamre doctrine, I believe. 

 

Hamre simply says that a CFI providing instruction is always deemed to have the responsibilities of a PIC. After all,

"A flight instructor's function is to teach. If he permits a flight to be placed in a situation where a mishap is inevitable, or even where the flight is subjected to potential danger, he has, in our opinion, exhibited carelessness within the meaning of FAR section 91.9" (From Hamre)

And since you linked Stroebel, you no doubt noticed that the CFI was held to not be responsible. 

The courts the NTSB, and the FAA have never ruled that the most senior pilot in the aircraft is responsible simply by being the most senior pilot.

Edited November 19, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

12 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I don't quite get the court case your referenced and how it would apply.  The court case was specifically in regards to a CFI rated pilot they concluded was acting as an instructor.  Is there another precedence for the court concluding another pilot would be PIC solely due to their seniority?

No.

[skykrawler]

6 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Hamre simply says that a CFI providing instruction is always deemed to have the responsibilities of a PIC.. And since you linked Stroebel, you no doubt noticed that the CFI was held to not be responsible. 

The courts the NTSB, and the FAA have never ruled that the most senior pilot in the aircraft is responsible simply by being the most senior pilot.

You speak with such authority.  But this contradicts the anecdote of @PT20J.    What are m-spacers to think or believe?  It seems plausible that the FAA has required remedial training in such a case and the individual wisely chose to not fight it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

10 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

You speak with such authority.  But this contradicts the anecdote of @PT20J.    What are m-spacers to think or believe?  It seems plausible that the FAA has required remedial training in such a case and the individual wisely chose to not fight it.

 

I would need to read the specific case he's referring to. There is no doubt the FAA will treat an instructor as always having PIC-type responsibility (which makes sense to me). The FAA will also look at each person in the airplane to see if they contributed in some way regardless of certificate or rating. And in some cases, it's definitely pretty nebulous. But in all the cases I've read on the subject over the course of 30+ years, the FAA and the NTSB has never said that a "senior" pilot has absolute responsibility for anything that happens regardless of his or her own actions or crew status.  Anecdotes without documentary support don't mean much to me. Find a case that says so.

OTOH, we all believe what we want to believe, don't we?

Edited November 19, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[PT20J]

9 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I would need to read the specific case he's referring to. There is no doubt the FAA will treat an instructor as always having PIC-type responsibility (which makes sense to me). The FAA will also look at each person in the airplane to see if they contributed in some way regardless of certificate or rating. And in some cases, it's definitely pretty nebulous. But in all the cases I've read on the subject over the course of 30+ years, the FAA and the NTSB has never said that a "senior" pilot has absolute responsibility for anything that happens regardless of his or her own actions or crew status.  Anecdotes without documentary support don't mean much to me. Find a case that says so.

OTOH, we all believe what we want to believe, don't we?

All my friend was saying is that the FAA reserves the right to make a determination of who was PIC based on the circumstances. 

[PT20J]

42 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Myth.

I cannot think of a reason that the FAA would accept someone’s certificate other than a surrender, so my point was that if you give it to the FAA to hold temporarily, it would be good to have documentation clarifying the situation.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

All my friend was saying is that the FAA reserves the right to make a determination of who was PIC based on the circumstances. 

Absolutely correct. They also reserve the right to impose responsibility on a pilot regardless of whether they were PIC. 

I used to have a list of regulatory fallacies. One was that the PIC's ultimate responsibility for a flight does not mean the PIC is the only one responsible. Plenty of cases where more than one pilot was held responsible, based on the circumstances.

Edited November 19, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

57 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I cannot think of a reason that the FAA would accept someone’s certificate other than a surrender, so my point was that if you give it to the FAA to hold temporarily, it would be good to have documentation clarifying the situation.

To examine it, just like a traffic cop asking for your license and registration?

My saying it's a myth is based on the FAA's requirements for a surrender. We can dive into Order 2150.3C if necessary, but we can start with the regulation.

§ 61.27 Voluntary surrender or exchange of certificate.
(a) The holder of a certificate issued under this part may voluntarily surrender it for:

     (1) Cancellation;

     (2) Issuance of a lower grade certificate; or

     (3) Another certificate with specific ratings deleted.

(b) Any request made under paragraph (a) of this section must include the following signed statement or its equivalent: “This request is made for my own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the tests prescribed for its issuance.”

The FAA is pretty strict about this. That's not so say that, just like any law enforcement organization, there aren't cowboys who make up their own rules, but I would expect them brought into line petty quickly.  As the pilot, I'd apply for a replacement online.

Edited November 19, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

To examine it, just like a traffic cop asking for your license and registration?

My saying it's a myth is based on the FAA's requirements for a surrender. We can dive into Order 2150.3C if necessary, but we can start with the regulation.

§ 61.27 Voluntary surrender or exchange of certificate.
(a) The holder of a certificate issued under this part may voluntarily surrender it for:

     (1) Cancellation;

     (2) Issuance of a lower grade certificate; or

     (3) Another certificate with specific ratings deleted.

(b) Any request made under paragraph (a) of this section must include the following signed statement or its equivalent: “This request is made for my own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the tests prescribed for its issuance.”

The FAA is pretty strict about this. That's not so say that, just like any law enforcement organization, there aren't cowboys who make up their own rules, but I would expect them brought into line petty quickly.  As the pilot, I'd apply for a replacement online.

OK, now I understand your point. I think you were originally referring to the folklore advice to not hand your certificate to an FAA inspector during a ramp check or some other official inspection request. I agree this is a myth. The FAA has a right to inspect your certificates and impeding this will only set up a needless confrontation that, in all likelihood, will not end well. 

This is different than walking into a FSDO and handing over your certificate. For that, paperwork should be generated to clarify the intent. In the case of an actual surrender, as you point out, the FAA is required to make this clear.

Frankly, I am skeptical that this ruse would work. Even if you handed in your certificate to the FAA for “safe keeping”, if you subsequently were involved in a flight for which the FAA later determined you acted as PIC, it would now have evidence that you did so without the certificate in your possession — another violation.

Skip

Edited November 19, 2022 by PT20J

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Even if you handed in your certificate to the FAA for “safe keeping”, if you subsequently were involved in a flight for which the FAA later determined you acted as PIC, it would now have evidence that you did so without the certificate in your possession. 

Skip

That's why I would use the online form to request a replacement if it was not a documented voluntary surrender but a cowboy ASI. But why was it necessary to deposit the plastic card (or paper certificate) it for "safekeeping?" My  wallet isn't good enough? Something about Denmark and something being rotten.

All surrenders are documented*.  Why was it necessary to One of the common temporary surrenders is in connection with a 709 ride. You get into an accident. The FAA 709s you but you have a medical disability (might or might not be related to the accident) resulting in a loss of medical. privileges. Missing the 709 ride date is grounds for certificate revocation, so you temporarily surrender your certificate. You might end up signing something like this:

 

* there is such a thing as an oral surrender order, but hose are documented as well - by the FAA  counsel's office, not a solo ASI.

Edited November 19, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

This is different than walking into a FSDO and handing over your certificate.

My reference had to do with handing it to a LONG TIME FRIEND (or friends) that happened to work for the FAA.  So if needed, there was an "official" that could testify that his intent was not to have anything to do with Piloting of the flight.  And this was back in the day when a lot of those "wives tales" were being created - founded or not.

 

[ilovecornfields]

22 hours ago, PT20J said:

I would be careful with that. If you give your certificate to the FAA, they could view that as a voluntary surrender and you might not get it back.

I can see that now. “What certificate? Oh, the one you surrendered?”