1970s M20E POH and V speeds

[Pilot boy]

Commercial check ride in a bout a week (finally - kept deferring for repairs) and I’m reviewing the 1966 POH (I have a 64 Mooney M20E).  I have been using a Vy for the soft field takeoff and normal climb of 15 degrees of flaps and 95 mph but I can’t find this number for Vy in the 66 POH.  Is there a bette or later source of data someone can point me to.  I know I found a checklist in Mooneyspace that had a takeoff flaps and 95 mph as Vy for the E model But I’m wondering where it came from.  The 66 POH has a zero flap climb paragraph about taking off that has it as 95 mph with no flaps but that is Stated as (best angle) Vx with no flaps...

Does someone have better v speed somewhere from like MAPA or a newer digital manual that’s recommended to be used.  Something I can show the DPE since the 66 POH just has nothing.....

[carusoam]

You can get better data….

But you are also going to need the explanation from a reliable source of why it applies to your plane…

Get the most recent POH for an M20E…. (1977)

All M20Es are the same with respect to their POHs… and the data that applies… (make sure all of the data applies to your plane…)

If you have STCs… the data may no longer apply…

When I had the same challenge… I called the Mooney factory and spoke to the guy that did the test flight for my M20C back in 1965….

Bill Wheat recommended having the right owners manual to keep the government happy… and the most recent POH to keep the pilot happy…

Work on your explanation of how you are going to deliver this to the DPE….

You don’t want to stumble, and sound like… as if you heard this from some guy on the internet…. 

 

PP thoughts only… Bill Wheat was an awesome engineer at Mooney… that took time to answer all technical questions coming in….

Have you looked in the downloads section to see what is available for POHs…

Have you contacted your favorite MSC to see what they have for electronic copies of POHs….

Do you have a favorite MSC?

As far as getting the MAPA handout…. It is available to anyone that attends their weekend training events…  and is pretty tough to come by any other way… copyright, ownership, gentlemen’s agreement….  Its best to go get the training… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooney Dog]

On 12/12/2021 at 10:17 PM, Pilot boy said:

the 66 POH just has nothing.....

Are you sure? My 65 has information on Vy and Vx speeds.

 

The POH for a 66 i looked up says 113mph at sea level for Vy decreasing to 102 at 10,000 and 94mph for Vx at full power, gear and flaps up. Normal climb at 26/26

 

Whats your S/N and whats your take off and climb section of your POH say? 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mooney Dog

[Pilot boy]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:15 AM, Mooney Dog said:

Are you sure? My 65 has information on Vy and Vx speeds.

 

The POH for a 66 i looked up says 113mph at sea level for Vy decreasing to 102 at 10,000 and 94mph for Vx at full power, gear and flaps up. Normal climb at 26/26

 

Whats your S/N and whats your take off and climb section of your POH say? 

It matches what you have...but for commercial check ride short field takeoff those numbers aren’t really going to be “accurate”.  I use takeoff flaps for short field Vx and for Vy...which is the proper commercial procedure and I know 80mph is the Vx for 15 degs of flaps but I am trying to found out where ppl have found that number.  Find me where in your POH it shows Vx and Vy with 15 degrees of flaps....it isn’t there in the 66.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

It matches what you have...but for commercial check ride short field takeoff those numbers aren’t really going to be “accurate”.  I use takeoff flaps for short field Vx and for Vy...which is the proper commercial procedure and I know 80mph is the Vx for 15 degs of flaps but I am trying to found out where ppl have found that number.  Find me where in your POH it shows Vx and Vy with 15 degrees of flaps....it isn’t there in the 66.

Back in the day, things were done differently. "Proper commercial procedure" is to follow your Owners Manual. My C has a Climb Performance chart with rate of climb and rate of climb speed from sda level to 18,000 msl in 1000' increments, and the (100 - Altitude in Thousands) is pretty accurate. Then again, you're in an E.

[Pilot boy]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

Back in the day, things were done differently. "Proper commercial procedure" is to follow your Owners Manual. My C has a Climb Performance chart with rate of climb and rate of climb speed from sda level to 18,000 msl in 1000' increments, and the (100 - Altitude in Thousands) is pretty accurate. Then again, you're in an E.

 yeah I’ve trained using 15 on the flaps and now I’m not sure how to defend this to the DPE.  I mean it really climbs well if I had to clear a 50 ft obstacle I would definitely use this method over the 66 POH.  I’ll probably do what has been suggested by others and get the 70s era POH which has better and more detailed numbers to use so I can explain where I got the data ...along with mainly relying on my 66 POH for more of the interview...

I guess I can review both methods so I’m prepped for the test it just changes things substantially for the climb outs.  

[Pilot boy]

15 hours ago, Hank said:

Back in the day, things were done differently. "Proper commercial procedure" is to follow your Owners Manual. My C has a Climb Performance chart with rate of climb and rate of climb speed from sda level to 18,000 msl in 1000' increments, and the (100 - Altitude in Thousands) is pretty accurate. Then again, you're in an E.

Actually the 66 does show the 80 mph for Vx that I’ve been using though I’m still trying to verify flap setting...the Vy is definitely a no flap speed of 105 but that wouldn’t be too hard to change from what I do now.

[PT20J]

The authority for operation of the airplane is the Owners Manual (POH/AFM starting in 1976) specified in the TCDS. If no procedure is listed for a maneuver required by the ACS then the Airplane Flying Handbook generic procedures could be used. I would not arrive for a commercial practical test without the proper Owners Manual.

Skip

[Pete M]

Vx and vy are generally clean wing numbers. Initial climb speeds after vr with t/o flaps are specified in poh's, for ex.  Cessna calls it " barrier speed", but they are not vx or vy. Use the procedure specified in the poh, the one you have or an earlier version. Used to have a 64 but lost it. Now i think i have a 65 "owners manual". I dont believe an "faa approved flight manual" is available for your airplane. Know your terms. Your cfi should have explained this. If you're near princeton nj, come see me next week.

Pete

[PT20J]

Per FAA AC60-6B, it's true that there is no FAA-required Airplane Flight Manual for an airplane certificated under CAR 3 and manufactured before March 1, 1979. However, this AC goes on to state that, "The principal source of information for identifying required AIRPLANE FLIGHT MANUALS, APPROVED MANUAL MATERIALS, MARKINGS, and PLACARDS is the FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet..."

The Mooney TCDS 2A3 Note 13 MOONEY MANUALS REQUIRED lists the owners manual required by aircraft model, year and serial number.

Skip

[Guest]

On 12/25/2021 at 11:24 AM, Pilot boy said:

 yeah I’ve trained using 15 on the flaps and now I’m not sure how to defend this to the DPE.  I mean it really climbs well if I had to clear a 50 ft obstacle I would definitely use this method over the 66 POH.  I’ll probably do what has been suggested by others and get the 70s era POH which has better and more detailed numbers to use so I can explain where I got the data ...along with mainly relying on my 66 POH for more of the interview...

I guess I can review both methods so I’m prepped for the test it just changes things substantially for the climb outs.  

Do you have the PoH for your 64E?  Seem that what you’re in need of.  If you need one I may be able to help you.

Clarence

[Mooney Dog]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:37 PM, Pilot boy said:

It matches what you have...but for commercial check ride short field takeoff those numbers aren’t really going to be “accurate”.  I use takeoff flaps for short field Vx and for Vy...which is the proper commercial procedure and I know 80mph is the Vx for 15 degs of flaps but I am trying to found out where ppl have found that number.  Find me where in your POH it shows Vx and Vy with 15 degrees of flaps....it isn’t there in the 66.

This is from page 25 of a 66 E model Owners Manual. This is after the part about the plane being airborne and bringing the gear, prop flaps into the proper positions.

Here's the performance data from that same manual. Notice it depicts the same thing, taking off and climbing over a 50 foot obstacle. Part of this is going to be interpolating how you should do this with the information you have available to you

This is something you should discus with your CFI, and possibly DPE, before hand but...

This is the ACS, what you will actually be tested on for your checkride. Even here it says that its the recommended speed OR Vx (+/- 5kts). Once you've cleared your obstacle plus any extra distance you want to give yourself, you move into a normal climb situation. If your Mooney is anything like mine, getting to 50 to 100ft off the ground will be so quick you wont even have time to second guess if you where really at the right speeds on a steam gauge. 

 

From my own understanding with the information i have found in this owners manual.

Apply full power for the take off. Get to Vr, bring the plane into the air, bring the gear and flaps up, then pitch for the 94MPH. Upon clearing your obstacle at 50ft, continue with any other clean up like reducing the engine power to 26/26 for your Vy or best r/c as per the manual. 

 

As i said before, getting above 50ft shouldn't take more than a few seconds at best. Following the procedures you can back up within the manufactures data will never be a fault for a checkride. Another note. Is your plane in knots or MPH? If its in MPH, dont try and convert everything, just use those numbers. Thats what the plane was certified for. yes the ACS says 5 knots but thats 6 mph, so its basically the same thing on a ASI. 

 

For reference, i am also a CFI,CFII,MEI 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Mooney Dog