prebuy or annual?

[RobertGary1]

44 minutes ago, McMooney said:

I had an Annual done instead of a prebuy, figured a shop signing their name was worth the extra cost.

And if you decide not to buy it?

 

-Robert 

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

And the one you've got now according to your profile info is sure different than the previous ones...

Not really. This is my 6th twin and second P337.

[McMooney]

4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

And if you decide not to buy it?

 

-Robert 

I was prepared to be out the 2000$ or so but it would've been better than being out the purchase price.  Also having a fresh annual was nice

[EricJ]

 

10 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

There is no standard for prebuy.

10 hours ago, adverseyaw said:

Nor is there for an annual. An IA must only use "a checklist" to complete an annual. A good annual is based on manufacturer's checklist, and if you're planning for good annuals in the future, you should include a lot of that in your pre-buy.

This is not correct regarding annual inspections.   FAR 43 Appendix D specifically addresses the scope and detail of items to be included in annual inspections, as a legal requirement.   Other lists can be used, but items in Appendix D cannot be omitted.  

Prebuy inspections are not regulated and can be anything arranged by the relevant parties, including no inspection at all.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think the two are different in the sense that an annual answers the regulatory question, "is it airworthy?" while a PPI is designed to answer the question, "should I buy it?" Sometimes the two questions overlap. Sometimes, they don't.

[Guest]

The Annual inspection is no guarantee of Airworthiness, other than the day it was signed.  The PPI audits the plane to discover its condition on the day it is completed.

Clarence

[Paul_Havelka]

As Paul, @gsxrpilot, stated "I would not allow someone else to have an annual performed on my aircraft."  Last time I spoke with Don Maxwell I believe he said a prebuy was in the $1750 range and to make it an annual if the purchase went through was like another $750 or so.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, Paul_Havelka said:

As Paul, @gsxrpilot, stated "I would not allow someone else to have an annual performed on my aircraft."  Last time I spoke with Don Maxwell I believe he said a prebuy was in the $1750 range and to make it an annual if the purchase went through was like another $750 or so.

That makes sense. That last thing you want is a list of discrepancies from a mechanic you didn't hire.  The flipside for the buyer is, don't rely on the seller's "fresh annual" as a reason to forego a PPI.

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, Paul_Havelka said:

As Paul, @gsxrpilot, stated "I would not allow someone else to have an annual performed on my aircraft."  Last time I spoke with Don Maxwell I believe he said a prebuy was in the $1750 range and to make it an annual if the purchase went through was like another $750 or so.

My pre-buy was done at Maxwell's and there were a couple of items where Don said, essentially, "I wouldn't pass this if it were an annual."   I thought that was a good way to put it.   They also do a very good job of generally characterizing airworthiness issues or optional issues, etc., and then make it easy to decide what work you want done or not.

I had already gone over the airplane myself a couple of times and the pre-buy was still very valuable.

[Wistarmo]

I personally evaluate the airplane I am to buy and take a demo flight.  I then use a sales contract with a deposit in escrow.  I then have an annual performed at my expense by my mechanic.  The sales contract requires the seller to fix any airworthiness items at his expense, and then he receives the deposit.  The final sales price is then negotiated with regards to non-airworthy items.  The closing is then done through escrow as well.  Worst case, I pay for an annual on a plane I don't purchase.  Best case, I buy an airplane with a fresh annual  and all airworthiness items fixed.  Has always worked for me.

[RobertGary1]

36 minutes ago, Wistarmo said:

I personally evaluate the airplane I am to buy and take a demo flight.  I then use a sales contract with a deposit in escrow.  I then have an annual performed at my expense by my mechanic.  The sales contract requires the seller to fix any airworthiness items at his expense, and then he receives the deposit.  The final sales price is then negotiated with regards to non-airworthy items.  The closing is then done through escrow as well.  Worst case, I pay for an annual on a plane I don't purchase.  Best case, I buy an airplane with a fresh annual  and all airworthiness items fixed.  Has always worked for me.

You could save some money by doing a prepurchase instead and have them leave the plane open. If you agreed to the deal then have them finish the annual. But if you find a corroded spar you’re not paying for someone’s annual. 
 

-Robert 

[RobertGary1]

By the way, as a seller never drop your plane off for someone’s prebuy without a release from the shop. They should collect the fee up front. Otherwise if they want away from the deal your plane will be held until you pay for their prebuy. 
 

-Robert

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Wistarmo said:

I personally evaluate the airplane I am to buy and take a demo flight.  I then use a sales contract with a deposit in escrow.  I then have an annual performed at my expense by my mechanic.  The sales contract requires the seller to fix any airworthiness items at his expense, and then he receives the deposit.  The final sales price is then negotiated with regards to non-airworthy items.  The closing is then done through escrow as well.  Worst case, I pay for an annual on a plane I don't purchase.  Best case, I buy an airplane with a fresh annual  and all airworthiness items fixed.  Has always worked for me.

You might find sellers who would agree to that, but not this one.

[McMooney]

2 hours ago, Wistarmo said:

I personally evaluate the airplane I am to buy and take a demo flight.  I then use a sales contract with a deposit in escrow.  I then have an annual performed at my expense by my mechanic.  The sales contract requires the seller to fix any airworthiness items at his expense, and then he receives the deposit.  The final sales price is then negotiated with regards to non-airworthy items.  The closing is then done through escrow as well.  Worst case, I pay for an annual on a plane I don't purchase.  Best case, I buy an airplane with a fresh annual  and all airworthiness items fixed.  Has always worked for me.

Exactly what I did.

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

You might find sellers who would agree to that, but not this one.

Yea it kind of seems like a set up. The plane isn’t advertised as new so non airworthy squawks are to be expected and shouldn’t reopen the entire sales negotiation. 
 

-Robert 

[Wistarmo]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Yea it kind of seems like a set up. The plane isn’t advertised as new so non airworthy squawks are to be expected and shouldn’t reopen the entire sales negotiation. 
 

-Robert 

You mean as buyer if you did a pre-buy or annual inspection and found non-airworthy squawks you would pay the full asking price?

[RobertGary1]

Just now, Wistarmo said:

You mean as buyer if you did a pre-buy or annual inspection and found non-airworthy squawks you would pay the full asking price?

For sure, that is part of the deal. Unless the plane is factory new. If you think a 60 year old plane is squawk free you probably shouldn't be buying used airplanes.

 

-Robert

[Wistarmo]

18 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

For sure, that is part of the deal. Unless the plane is factory new. If you think a 60 year old plane is squawk free you probably shouldn't be buying used airplanes.

 

-Robert

Gosh, I didn’t realize I didn’t know what I was doing.  Now I have to call up my previous sellers and refund them the money they discounted.  

[RobertGary1]

2 minutes ago, Wistarmo said:

Gosh, I didn’t realize I didn’t know what I was doing.  Now I have to call up my previous sellers and refund them the money they discounted.  

Not a bad idea. I've spoken with several brokers who say they won't even do business with buyers who try to renegotiate the deal when no airworthy squawks were found. Its just bad faith on the part of the buying knowing the plane could never be sold at the agreed price. 

 

-Robert

[gsxrpilot]

The contract I've used both when buying and selling airplanes states the agreed upon purchase price. The pre-buy comes later and with regards to price is ONLY about airworthy issues. I've agreed to buy/sell an airworthy airplane. The pre-buy verifies that fact. Any airworthy items will be either corrected by the seller or the price will be discounted by the estimated cost to correct. 

If you came back to me and wanted to renegotiate the price based on non-airworthy squawks, the deal would be off and I'd keep your deposit as per the contract.

[RobertGary1]

5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

If you came back to me and wanted to renegotiate the price based on non-airworthy squawks, the deal would be off and I'd keep your deposit as per the contract.

Brokers tell me the worst part of their job is the perpetual tire kickers. They call and want to talk about a plane for hours. Even sometimes do a pre-buy but will never pull the trigger. Hence an informal black list of buyers they won't work with.

-Robert

[McMooney]

It's my expectation an item will be as stated, otherwise we renegotiate or i walk WITH my money.

Same conditions i would give someone buying my plane,  you will get exactly what's stated no less.

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by McMooney

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, McMooney said:

It's my expectation an item will be as stated, otherwise we renegotiate or i walk WITH my money.

Same conditions i would give someone buying my plane,  you will get exactly what's stated no less.

 

Exactly, and thus the only thing stated in the contract is that it is in airworthy condition.

[RobertGary1]

16 minutes ago, McMooney said:

It's my expectation an item will be as stated, otherwise we renegotiate or i walk WITH my money.

Same conditions i would give someone buying my plane,  you will get exactly what's stated no less.

 

Exactly. Unless the ad said the plane is right off the assembly line no 60 year old plane is as new. So non airworthy squawks are part of the assumed condition.

-Robert

[MikeOH]

10 hours ago, Wistarmo said:

I personally evaluate the airplane I am to buy and take a demo flight.  I then use a sales contract with a deposit in escrow.  I then have an annual performed at my expense by my mechanic.  The sales contract requires the seller to fix any airworthiness items at his expense, and then he receives the deposit.  The final sales price is then negotiated with regards to non-airworthy items.  The closing is then done through escrow as well.  Worst case, I pay for an annual on a plane I don't purchase.  Best case, I buy an airplane with a fresh annual  and all airworthiness items fixed.  Has always worked for me.

Glad that's worked for you.

But, if I was selling, NFW I'd agree to that!