Looking for - Turbo for a Continental TSIO 360 LB and some questions

[231LV]

18 hours ago, Jim F said:

H johnny,

Sorry for the delay I was traveling.

FL	MPH
FL21	219
FL20	217
FL19	214
18ft	212
17ft	210
16ft	207
15ft	205
14ft	203
13ft	200
12ft	198
11ft	196
10ft	195
9ft	194
8ft	193
7ft	191
6ft	190
5ft	189
4ft	188 Jim

Wait...you get these speeds flying an M20k with a TSIO-360-LB engine running 75% power ROP at these settings at these altitudes? I get nowhere near the speeds you are seeing in my newly overhauled TSIO-360LB with full power at 2500RPM...if these speeds are correct, I have a seriously slow airplane!

[tmo]

24 minutes ago, 231LV said:

TSIO-360LB with full power at 2500RPM

TSIO-360LB full power is at 2700 RPM, just sayin'.

[Johnny_SA]

7 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Any updates yet?

Clarence

Hi, Turbo arrived in South Africa, with a bit of luck it will be delivered to the AMO tomorrow, they will probably go to the plane and fit it next week.  Will update you with the end result.

Regarding the speeds, that is the reason why I asked.  Also have a feeling our K is on the slow side.  We see +/- 155 kts TAS between 8000 and 10000 feet.  I'm interested to see if there is a change with the new turbo, although I don't think there should be a significant change.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Johnny_SA

[231LV]

6 hours ago, tmo said:

TSIO-360LB full power is at 2700 RPM, just sayin'.

correct....which is why I am wondering what settings he is using to get these speeds cause these are way higher than what I am seeing...I wouldnt fly at 21k ft with 2700 rpm because that setting yields a slower speed than 2500rpm. I guess I have to go up to the flight levels and try some settings. I just don't get anywhere close to those speeds at the altitudes he shows...

[Marcopolo]

7 minutes ago, 231LV said:

correct....which is why I am wondering what settings he is using to get these speeds cause these are way higher than what I am seeing...I wouldnt fly at 21k ft with 2700 rpm because that setting yields a slower speed than 2500rpm. I guess I have to go up to the flight levels and try some settings. I just don't get anywhere close to those speeds at the altitudes he shows...

@231LV None of us do!  But his chart is also in MPH TAS not knots, still faster than me though.

 

Ron

[carusoam]

+1 for mias vs kias in the charts...

+1 for experimenting in the FLs... where the turbo works!   And air resistance is lower...

+1 for sharing all this great data... really helpful when trying to solve a challenge like this...

PP thoughts only...

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[Johnny_SA]

On 10/20/2020 at 4:51 PM, Jim F said:

Please have your maintainer check the suction screen as M20Doc notes.

What type and WT of oil are you using?  I am using Aeroshell 15-50

My speeds are

75% 100 ROP 10K 195 MPHTAS, 17K 210 MPMTAS

65% ~25ROP 10K 185 MPHTAS. 17K 196 MPHTAS

Jim

Jim did mention his settings in this previous post.

[Johnny_SA]

Time for an Update ! The Turbo was fitted last week Wednesday.  Oil pressure looked better, but difficult to say if it was the turbo as the oil pressure was adjusted during the fault fault finding.  First photo was the flight back to the AMO (FAPA).   They checked everything again in the workshop, and the pressure had to be lowered as it was too high when the oil was cold.   Today on her flight back to FAPE it was running as per second photo.

They check the stainer and all looked good.

We looked at a couple of things that might be limiting the speed.  We found that one of the wheel doors had a small gap.  We also corrected the forward CG (was 40.8) with charlie weights (CG is 42.8 now).  Takeoff and landing feels a lot better.  Will monitor the TAS dusking the next couple of flights.

Thanks for all the input and advise.

IMG_3871.HEIC

[carusoam]

Great follow up, Johnny!

Best regards,

-a-

[Johnny_SA]

Another update in the interest of sharing information.

Oil pressure still ran low (34psi) on the first flight that I flew her, So I took some pics of the gages and sent them to the AMO. They decided to come through and adjust the pressure up.  After checking the release valve and oil strainer again (all clear and in order), he was not happy that we get 32PSI at 900RPM, but only 38PSI at 2000RPM.  

The general feeling was that the pump is not pumping (but then you would expect worse on idle) or it is not getting oil to pump.  The general feeling was also that there was nothing wrong with the turbo in the first place. They flew her back to their shop to remove the oil hoses and inspect the oil coolers. (it has and extra oil cooler that was install some time ago).  Everything check out fine, so as a test they decided to by-pass the additional oil cooler.  Without the additional oil cooler the oil pressure is responding as it should.  We are now flying her like this and monitoring oil temperature.  From the first flights it seems ok, can't get her higher than 190 degF with the cowl flaps closed.

The additional oil cooler was install with the original GB engine.  At TBO they installed a factory overhauled LB engine, and the additional oil cooler was left in the system.  

We are going send the cooler away to get cleaned up to see if it is clogged up, and then decide if it goes back or not.  What is your thoughts on this ?

[carusoam]

Why would it make sense to have a different oil cooler or added oil cooler in the system?

This probably makes sense when operating on the ground in a hot environment...

Once flying, Mooneys around the world typically stay with the factory design, which is somewhat oversized...

The engine manufacturers supply an oil cooler plate for winter ops... cutting back on a large percentage of surface area of the cooler...

For hot weather ops... we usually select an oil that is slightly more viscous... (all in the POH)

One would have to go back and ask.... “why did they add an oil cooler to the system, when the same certified engine has been flying around the world without one...?”

Keep in mind...

Where the OilP is being measured is important... our green arcs, and red lines, are very much related to the specific plumbing the engine had when The testing to generate the arcs and redlines was done...

Depending on where the extra cooler is, and the specific details related to the extra cooler... it is quite possible that the gear pump and the oil pressure regulator are at odds with each other with the extra cooler in the middle...

Our oil pump is really good at supplying a volume of oil with each revolution... the unknown is... how much resistance (pressure drop) does the extra cooler cause?

Pressure builds in front of each point of resistance...

If points of resistance get added to the system... expect the OilP at the front to need to increase.... to get the same job done...

of course the overall pressure increases... but where are we measuring the single point of OilP in the new system?

 

Overall by simply adding an additional cooler... this causes an engineering level change to understand what else got changed... T, P, and V are important... our instruments are a simple minimalist approach based on everything staying within the original design...

Hope that is helpful... 

Fortunately, this is only a PP thinking out loud, not a mechanical engineer or mechanic...

Without doing a bunch of engineering... the by-pass the extra cooler, and monitor T & P sounds like a good idea...

Best regards,

-a-