Tcraft938 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 On 2/22/2020 at 11:17 AM, Nukemzzz said: Original POH: newer one: If the newer manual is valid, the above implies that at some point Mooney learned that the best climb angle speed was 94mph and not 80mph which is a pretty big goof right? Unless the 80mph is dirty? Still confused. Also your original manual says to climb at 25” mp and 2500rpm the new one is 26” 2600. Another difference and I doubt one that increases climb speed by almost 20%.
Tcraft938 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 On 2/21/2020 at 11:43 PM, M20Doc said: From the Mooney website page covering PoH revision status. Clarence Very interesting. Where did this come from? I would love to find something better than the little, glorified sales brochure called owners manual that came with my’63. Thanks
carusoam Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 Just now, Tcraft938 said: Very interesting. Where did this come from? I would love to find something better than the little, glorified sales brochure called owners manual that came with my’63. Thanks Go to the download section... Get the most recent POH for your M20C... Keep your original documents for Arrow purposes... use the less antiquated stuff to support your operations... Learn the shortcomings of the most recent stuff too... Nothing stays current forever... You can buy official POHs from Mooney through the MSC network... usually... Pp thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a-
Hank Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 On 2/22/2020 at 11:31 AM, carusoam said: MSer Canopyman would probably recommend... landing straight ahead... always have a plan even if it includes nothing but trees... We have an MSer or two that have survived trees... I was doing research around the time I bought my Mooney (2007, pre-MS), and remember reading an NTSB report abiut some poor soul flying a Mooney in either Far South AL or the FL Panhandle and lost his engine at nigbt. He did a full-stall landing into the pine trees, and lodged the plane gently in the treetops. His only injuries were sustained climbing down in the darkness. 2
Guest Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 8 hours ago, Tcraft938 said: Very interesting. Where did this come from? I would love to find something better than the little, glorified sales brochure called owners manual that came with my’63. Thanks From Mooney.com , under the support tab there is a manual revision check list. Clarence
Ibra Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) On 2/22/2020 at 4:17 PM, Nukemzzz said: If the newer manual is valid, the above implies that at some point Mooney learned that the best climb angle speed was 94mph and not 80mph which is a pretty big goof right? Unless the 80mph is dirty? How much real difference in climb gradient between these two speeds? if I am doing 1200fpm on both, I expect 15% vs 17% climb gradients, probably not enough to save the show for vertical maneuvering but the faster is better for visibility and a lateral 20deg avoidance if the engine quits Vx, Vy climbs don't matter for the wall ahead but at low level enough fast speed will allow to accelerate for normal flare speeds... In general, Values of Vx, Vy change with density altitude with spread goes to zero at 8000ft on normally aspirated engines ((Vy go down and Vx goes up), on the M20J, sea level Vx=66kts, Vy = 88kts, at 10,000ft both will be around Vx = Vy = 80kts In M20J, I climb at 110kts all times that gives about 12% climb gradient and keep the view ahead very familiar Edited February 24, 2020 by Ibra
carusoam Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 Find the recent Mooney Summit presentation by an X Mooney Engineer/test pilot... It covers the advantages of each type of climb, from a more modern viewpoint... Realistically we are decades down stream from the original documented procedures... that were terribly frozen in time. It is wise to use the most recent documents available, but support them with actual data collected from your actual plane... Bring your CFI along if doing flight testing near the ground... It is pretty easy to poke fun at the history of Mooney POHs. It is quite challenging to collect some personalized data. When the chips are down... get the big picture right while working on the finer details... Stalling the plane has occurred whether Vx or Vy was the intended airspeed... Attempts to turn back to the airport have failed as well... Vy gives a second or two (?) more time to get the nose down... Vx has a more immediate requirement... Expect good data, good training, and good practice... to be beneficial... Rusty data, Rusty training, and Rusty practice... would be the opposite of beneficial... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a-
Tcraft938 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 On 2/22/2020 at 11:29 AM, Bob_Belville said: I have a '66E, serial 929. A previous owner, meticulous Delta Captain, provided a N943RW specific manual. Vx - clean is 94 mph CAS, Vx - take off flaps - is 80 mph CAS. Probably not a coincidence. I did my checkout with an air force test pilot and Mooney owner. He told me similar numbers. “With takeoff flaps pitch for 80 to 85 mph depending on weight it will make getting gear up easier then keep that pitch angle and you will notice the plane accelerated to 92 to 95 mph with gear and flaps up”. He had me do it again but increase pitch to keep 85 mph and he was right we did not climb as high over distance (end of runway) as we did maintaining pitch and accelerate a little. He told me that was based on a formula that takes Vs0 and Vs1 into consideration. “We just proved this airplane knows the formula, a few do not. Why does Mooney know the formula? The efficiency wing and we changed what it was optimized for”. He was interested and awesome to learn from. 1
Tcraft938 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 11 hours ago, M20Doc said: From Mooney.com , under the support tab there is a manual revision check list. Clarence Thank you very much sir
Tcraft938 Posted February 24, 2020 Report Posted February 24, 2020 20 hours ago, carusoam said: Go to the download section... Get the most recent POH for your M20C... Keep your original documents for Arrow purposes... use the less antiquated stuff to support your operations... Learn the shortcomings of the most recent stuff too... Nothing stays current forever... You can buy official POHs from Mooney through the MSC network... usually... Pp thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Thank you. I have the fun of owning a D model that was converted with retractable gear so a hybrid C? As you said I may keep the D in the plane and get a C poh 1
carusoam Posted February 25, 2020 Report Posted February 25, 2020 Often referred to as an M20D/C or C/D... those in the know will be familiar... The legal documents will say D on them... the data you want to fly with will all say C on them...and be dated around 1976...or 77... A real D still has a fixed prop... so performance numbers for the C will definitely need proper power charts to be useful... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a-
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