No Start Issues

[Yetti]

 

[carusoam]

I think, tradition grounds the right mag during the start sequence.  Thus, allowing the left mag to use 0°btdc ignition timing and/or the SOS box to provide a bunch of sparks...

The grounding of one mag keeps it from sparking at the usual 20-25° BTDC which may cause a backwards attempt of running...

-a-

[Guest]

2 hours ago, TWinter said:

Update:

Mechanic installed the new left mag today. We had also replaced the plugs prior. SOS and all seem to test correct. Here is where we are now.

Got everything buttoned up for start up. Crank, crank still no turnover. Then he decides to check key ignition positions on the mags and if they were getting proper current. Turns out that when we get to the start position and I press the key in I'm getting ground at the left mag.

He took the P-Lead off the left mag (sp?..I not a mechanic, but learning a lot watching them trouble-shoot) tried again and the engine fired right up in a few swings. Shut down and did additional tries with P-lead back on the left mag. Again and no start. P-lead off the left again and it started right up again.

Disconnected the starter hot to just test the left mag. Everytime I pushed the key in for ignition  left mag shows grounding. Testing of the switch in / off/ rght/left mag showed ground at correct times, but the left is showing ground at start with ignition pushed in preventing start.  He's researching, but now we are to possible ignition switch defective. Anybody have thoughts about this or agree or disagree? if so what is the best (quickest source) for new ignition switch. Part # if anybody knows where and who to find one.  I'm starting to have withdrawals.

-Tom

  

Tradionally the right P lead is grounded by the switch when in the start position. Remove both P leads from the mags and connect an Eastern E50 synchronizer the the P leads, left wire to the left P lead, right wire to right P lead, ground to the engine.  

Turn the E50 on, aimed toward the windshield, sit in the plane, with the switch off both lights should be off, cycle the switch through all positions the lights should match the switch positions Off, right, left both, then in start the right light should go out.

Make sure the P lead and SOS wires are not crossed at the left mag.

If all is correct, you can test the SOS 

Reconnect P lead and SOS wires to mags,

Remove plug wires from all plugs,

Removed starter solenoid wire from starter solenoid,  stand clear of the propeller and turn the key to start with the master on the verify the engine will not turn with the starter.

Turn engine to TDC cylinder one compression stroke,

Hold upper plug wire 3/8” from a rocker box screw or good ground with a pair of pliers,

Have someone sit in Pilots seat, master switch on, turn key to start position, a shower of sparks should come out of the wire end,

You may have to turn the propeller back and forth the find the the exact spot to get the Shower of sparks going.

Turn the propeller 180 degrees forward, the shower of sparks should come from cylinder 3, 180 degrees again should be cylinder 2, 180 degrees again should be cylinder 4.

If you need the SOS manual I can send it to you.

Clarence

 

 

 

[TWinter]

9 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Tradionally the right P lead is grounded by the switch when in the start position. Remove both P leads from the mags and connect an Eastern E50 synchronizer the the P leads, left wire to the left P lead, right wire to right P lead, ground to the engine.  

Turn the E50 on, aimed toward the windshield, sit in the plane, with the switch off both lights should be off, cycle the switch through all positions the lights should match the switch positions Off, right, left both, then in start the right light should go out.

Make sure the P lead and SOS wires are not crossed at the left mag.

If all is correct, you can test the SOS 

Reconnect P lead and SOS wires to mags,

Remove plug wires from all plugs,

Removed starter solenoid wire from starter solenoid,  stand clear of the propeller and turn the key to start with the master on the verify the engine will not turn with the starter.

Turn engine to TDC cylinder one compression stroke,

Hold upper plug wire 3/8” from a rocker box screw or good ground with a pair of pliers,

Have someone sit in Pilots seat, master switch on, turn key to start position, a shower of sparks should come out of the wire end,

You may have to turn the propeller back and forth the find the the exact spot to get the Shower of sparks going.

Turn the propeller 180 degrees forward, the shower of sparks should come from cylinder 3, 180 degrees again should be cylinder 2, 180 degrees again should be cylinder 4.

If you need the SOS manual I can send it to you.

Clarence

 

 

 

Good morning all, just getting caught up on the posts. I'll pass this info on to him and tell him all the suggestions. Clarence..thanks and we will give it a try.

[Yetti]

Two things I wonder about.   how long should these old birds be in service.   How long will quality professionals who know their stuff like Clarence be around to keep the old birds in the air.

[TWinter]

Took a few minutes this morning after reading all the posts and suggestions. Decided to take a look at the ignition switch. What I found was interesting. The wire was attached to the broken side and it literally fell apart in my hand. Not sure if it's the culprit or just a part of the problem. It does show that I'll need to repair or replace the ignition switch. I also had one ring terminal wire very loose.  

-Tom

[Guitarmaster]

Took a few minutes this morning after reading all the posts and suggestions. Decided to take a look at the ignition switch. What I found was interesting. The wire was attached to the broken side and it literally fell apart in my hand. Not sure if it's the culprit or just a part of the problem. It does show that I'll need to repair or replace the ignition switch. I also had one ring terminal wire was very loose.  
-Tom

It's always nice to find a Smoking Gun, even if it may not be the only one.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, TWinter said:

Took a few minutes this morning after reading all the posts and suggestions. Decided to take a look at the ignition switch. What I found was interesting. The wire was attached to the broken side and it literally fell apart in my hand. Not sure if it's the culprit or just a part of the problem. It does show that I'll need to repair or replace the ignition switch. I also had one ring terminal wire very loose.  

-Tom

That’s supposed to be the right P lead wire and the little bar is the grounding jumper which grounds the right mag in the start position.

Clarence

[TWinter]

11 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

That’s supposed to be the right P lead wire and the little bar is the grounding jumper which grounds the right mag in the start position.

Clarence

Clarence, The little bar. looked like it was to be connected to the small copper hole (like the others that are riveted to the ignition)?.  Should the one in my hand be attached to the switch? Copper rivet holds the right side. Is the left supposed to be riveted to the open copper hole.. Hard to explain, but do you see what I'm asking?

The bottom of the piece in my hand has wear and looks like it was attached to the switch near the vacant copper looking hole. Was this riveted there at one point and now has broken off? Am I making any sense?

 

[TWinter]

Here is a close up. You can see it has wear and appears to have been attached to the switch. Looks like the connecting point (rivet or whatever) had broken loose. Your thoughts? The screw actually threads from the other side making the bridge, but the bottom base looks like it should have been secured (riveted) or attached. It was not attached to the switch at the base. Looks like it broke off? Note the rough bottom and the switch had a wear area where it looks like it had been.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TWinter said:

Here is a close up. You can see it has wear and appears to have been attached to the switch. Looks like the connecting point (rivet or whatever) had broken loose. Your thoughts? The screw actually threads from the other side making the bridge, but the bottom base looks like it should have been secured (riveted) or attached. It was not attached to the switch at the base. Looks like it broke off? Note the rough bottom and the switch had a wear area where it looks like it had been.

This piece is supposed to be fastened to the back plate of the switch, the other bar connects the two terminals together providing the ground in the start position.

Clarence

[carusoam]

Nice to find the smoking gun while on the ground...

Estimating... 50 years and 5,000 hours of vibration on that switch?

My C’s switch had failed the day the new owner came to take it away.   The push to start mode decided to go inop that day...

It is too important of a piece of flight safety, to allow saving money on it.  Either a new switch or new switch design (Anthony’s idea above)makes a lot of sense...

My C’s switch was so hard to use for a decade, my fingers were sore using it... twist, push, and cold weather, we’re tough...

PP thoughts only. Great having Doc’s input on these technical challenges!  

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Tom,

for a wiring diagram that details your broken terminal...

The rebuild kit details what broke off.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/ignitionswitchkit.php?gclid=Cj0KCQiAwp_UBRD7ARIsAMie3Xbng0jSrc0QqlJjo5uWdbSXNqRA7SnHnaVFYH2gzC7pYoUSLbPuCn0aArpGEALw_wcB

Find the post above that mentions the jumper...  I see in your latest set of photos where the jumper is.  And what broke.  And why the L mag was unexpectedly grounded...  (that’s a lot of memory, I may have it a little fuzzy...)

I think the power of MS is really showing itself today...  

Still wouldn’t rebuild the switch, until it was my only option.

Also make sure the wires are well supported behind the switch.  The stress of the weight hanging on the parts can be what broke the part.

Best regards,

-a-

[TWinter]

A HUGE thanks to MS and the wisdom shared. Extra shout to Clarence and his quick replies and expertise. It's great having years of experience at the finger tips. One way or another we will manage to keep these old birds in the air....as long as we have MS that is  

-Tom

[Guitarmaster]

A HUGE thanks to MS and the wisdom shared. Extra shout to Clarence and his quick replies and expertise. It's great having years of experience at the finger tips. One way or another we will manage to keep these old birds in the air....as long as we have MS that is  
-Tom

Agreed! Owning and maintaining an airplane 10 years ago would be much more difficult and expensive than it is today!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[TWinter]

3 minutes ago, Guitarmaster said:

Agreed! Owning and maintaining an airplane 10 years ago would be much more difficult and expensive than it is today!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

Old days would  have to call a expert tech and be in hold for an hour while they thumbed through manuals and microfiche. Now if we have a problem and post it we have years of experience and knowledge with answers at the stroke of the key..I always say I like the way things were way back then, but sometimes I have to admit technology and internet is a wonderful tool.

-Tom

[Yetti]

Should be able to rivet that piece back on or a really small screw and nut.  or just get a new key switch and be done with it.    Two SPST toggle switches and a momentary on SPST push button would work in a pinch.

Leave the left mag grounded when starting.

off = grounded.

 

[TWinter]

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Should be able to rivet that piece back on or a really small screw and nut.  or just get a new key switch and be done with it.    Two SPST toggle switches and a momentary on SPST push button would work in a pinch.

Leave the left mag grounded when starting.

off = grounded.

 

Looking at options. Thought about repair, but that is a tiny space to work in. Spruce is $540 for the Bendix replacement. Electroair is much cheaper, but I'm not sure I have the real estate needed the way my panel is set-up. I'll do more checking when I get back to the hanger tomorrow.

 

-Tom

[LANCECASPER]

28 minutes ago, TWinter said:

Looking at options. Thought about repair, but that is a tiny space to work in. Spruce is $540 for the Bendix replacement. Electroair is much cheaper, but I'm not sure I have the real estate needed the way my panel is set-up. I'll do more checking when I get back to the hanger tomorrow.

 

-Tom

You're welcome to use my Spruce discount plus free ground shipping if want. Feel free to PM me.

 

[carusoam]

While looking at all the alternatives... the push to start while holding the key is tough on the fingers...

Some planes have twist to the start location, spring return to Both...  a little more finger friendly if able...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

And the price of the electroaire is about half the Bendix price...  if I got that right...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

Tom,

for a wiring diagram that details your broken terminal...

The rebuild kit details what broke off.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/ignitionswitchkit.php?gclid=Cj0KCQiAwp_UBRD7ARIsAMie3Xbng0jSrc0QqlJjo5uWdbSXNqRA7SnHnaVFYH2gzC7pYoUSLbPuCn0aArpGEALw_wcB

Find the post above that mentions the jumper...  I see in your latest set of photos where the jumper is.  And what broke.  And why the L mag was unexpectedly grounded...  (that’s a lot of memory, I may have it a little fuzzy...)

I think the power of MS is really showing itself today...  

Still wouldn’t rebuild the switch, until it was my only option.

Also make sure the wires are well supported behind the switch.  The stress of the weight hanging on the parts can be what broke the part.

Best regards,

-a-

His switch is a Bendix TCM, that kit is for an ACS Gerdes, which won’t work and the ACS is not approved for the Mooney.

Clarence

[Guest]

7 hours ago, TWinter said:

Looking at options. Thought about repair, but that is a tiny space to work in. Spruce is $540 for the Bendix replacement. Electroair is much cheaper, but I'm not sure I have the real estate needed the way my panel is set-up. I'll do more checking when I get back to the hanger tomorrow.

 

-Tom

Here is the switch parts break down.

 

[Guest]

The Mooney uses a Bendix 10-357-210-9, there’s one on EBAY 

 

[TWinter]

Quick update and close out. Original problem was no or very slow starting. Progressively getting worse. Flooded on nearly every attempt to start.

1. Start with checking the simple and checked plugs and looked for shorts etc. Installed new plugs.

2. Initial diagnosis from shop was possible left mag bad. We replaced the new mag.

3. While we were waiting on mag to arrive I discovered a broken terminal on the ignition switch housing. Replaced with new

While it seemed just slightly better, it still flooded very easy and still took several cranks resulting in no start. I was having to resort to flooded start procedure. I might get lucky with the three handed shuffle and catch it just right, but something was definitely not right.

Since we had buzzing from the SOS and had spark using the Don Maxwell technique to check the SOS box we started to looks at possible fuel delivery issue?

I had previously ordered a new SOS box earlier last week knowing I would return it if we got it going prior and before checking the spark. After seeing spark and hearing the buzzing I was pretty sure I would be returning the box to Spruce.

Today before getting totally discouraged I thought WTH. I'm going to try the new SOS box to just see...

Installed it and pulled it out for a shot in the dark... Put the key in, turn and all of a sudden in two swings she fires to life. So quick I did not even get a chance to listen for the new SOS buzz, I wondered if it would sound different than the old original 1973 box. I let it run for a few minutes, then shut is down. I gave another try and a few swings of the prop and she fires again..mags check good :). A few more hot starts and it cranks every time. Looks like problem solved..

Moral to the story... Just because there is buzzing and you have spark in the SOS don't rule out 40 yr old electronics as the possible culprit, it can hide very well and still be defective. Even if it took $2300 total shot gun repair to find the gremlin. Two hours of flying tonight with various stops, shut downs and restarts. All good to go. I truly believe it starts better now than it ever has since my last 6 yrs of caretaker ship.

Now back in the air and working toward that IFR.

-Tom