landing speeds and flap settings?

[scottfromiowa]

Shad...The guy asked for input.  I provided it.  Advice.  I'm just a pilot, I'll leave that to the professionals.  I routinely land on 3500-4000 feet runways in all different seasons throughout the year when not landing at my home field CID...which has a crapload of runway.  I would feel comfortable landing on any 3000 feet runway.  I do all landings power off when runway is made and have read enough about stalling a Mooney on base to final turn that I don't get below a 100mph.  I routinely landed no flaps when solo for years and hundreds of hours, but have begun to us 1/2 flaps (two pumps) or full flaps...always full flaps when I have 600 pounds (my routine three passengers).  My "technique" was critiqued yesterday on three landings with a CFI on a 3500 feet runway including an emergency procedure "simulated power out" with power at idle from downwind (even with end of 18) with winds at 10-15 at 120...Instructor was pleased and signed off with no "issues".  I do NOT have a float issue with my plane coming over fence at 70-80 and coming down to flare point hearing stall horn.  Light breaking to first taxiway...I know at what speed my plane stalls and with power off over fence i'm into flare and down ALWAYS in first third of runway.  I believe I have addressed your questions.  If you fly slower.  Good for you.  I don't.

[eldeano]

ahhhhh, this used to be such a nice happy forum

Back to the original question, in my C I do full flaps 100 downwind,90 base, 80(mph) over the fence pull power, a little float then it settles down beautifully.  On short runways like where I used to be based at Harvey field, (2400 by 36) I would level out on final, bring it down to 70 then you have a fairly steep decent angle keeping it at 70(plus half the guest factor) and no float.

The former is a more comfortable stabilized approach for me.  This is just what works for me and I hope it in some way helps. Please do not hate me.

[Shadrach]

Quote: eldeano

ahhhhh, this used to be such a nice happy forum

Back to the original question, in my C I do full flaps 100 downwind,90 base, 80(mph) over the fence pull power, a little float then it settles down beautifully.  On short runways like where I used to be based at Harvey field, (2400 by 36) I would level out on final, bring it down to 70 then you have a fairly steep decent angle keeping it at 70(plus half the guest factor) and no float.

The former is a more comfortable stabilized approach for me.  This is just what works for me and I hope it in some way helps. Please do not hate me.

[Shadrach]

[scottfromiowa]

Hey,

There are a lot of subtle variences on landing a Mooney (especially diffent bodies/engines/models).  Many of these can be implemented safely.  I choose to fly 100 mph (downwind/base/turn to final) because it is on the outside of my gauge and easy to see as a reference. (and because the most experienced Mooney pilot test pilot died in a base to final stall while IN the aircraft)  This is what I pitch to when losing altitude after power reduction at the numbers.  80mph is my next speed as it's ON THE/my GAUGE...easy to reference(on outside) and what I pitch for if high wanting to lose altitude with power off (runway made)...when I come over the fence without power the speed is bleeding off and I am NOT floating and have enough energy for flare.  My technique was challenged.  I take exception to this and responded if that means I'm not being N.I.C.E so be it.  I think debate is how we learn.  Last series(on landings on MooneySpace) I learned that I should be using flaps when solo for all landings...so I do.  My cues have been developed over hundreds of landings over 400 hours in my Mooney, (I just went over 500 hours total time) with my BFR on Saturday.  I am still a novice VFR pilot, but I'm NOT excessively floating, bouncing or needing to brake on my landings in a 66 E model.  There is NOTHING wrong with trying different flap combinations to see how your plane performs.  Every landing is different based on temps and wind and loading.  Go practice and get some experience.  If what your doing isn't working and you don't have confidence/feel safe...get some instruction.

Have a N.I.C.E day everyone.

[scottfromiowa]

I personally think that knowledge is king.  Those that share it in a condescending,omnipotent all knowing manner are considered pompous or Not Nice.  Do they have knowledge?  Absolutely.  Do others learn from them?  Absolutely.  Do some choose to disregard this knowledge based on its delivery technique?  Absolutely.  If one is arrogant and depricating and is attempting to teach...if they have heard much improper technique discussed do they attempt to educate and teach or do they call someone out and pontificate only to use the phrase IMO, might be, could be, in my estimation,...

[scottfromiowa]

This is a Mooney forum.  It's about Mooney's.  Mooney's primarily have T.W.O. wing tanks.  People being AFRAID of Stalling a Mooney turning base to final...or being AFRAID to run a tank dry (your choice of words) means they have reviewed accidents and have seen FATALITIES from these.  They have educated themselves and modified their technique to AVOID THE RISK of having this occur.  If someone was coming over the fence at 100mph...and some Mooney pilots do they run the risk of floating, losing runway and forcing nose down, porpoising and suffering a prop strike, gear up or airfield over-run.  Gross excess in speed on final.  Something to avoid.  If you want to saw you know your tail is 1 foot off the ground...awesome.  I bow to your amazing pilotage, skill technique.  Minion signing off.

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: Shadrach

No one is not being nice or happy from what I've read; if I ruffled a few feathers, so be it.  However, there is a lot of the info being posted on here is based on emotion and dogma, not pilotage/physics.  I learned to fly with all of the OWTs and have partners and friends who climb at 25/25, dump flaps in the float, are afraid to run tanks dry, know that LOP burns valves, and land with a touch of power because it's smoother (did I miss any?)...   

The truth is... not my truth or your truth, but the repeatable scientific truth that is based in physics is reposted below.  Both Immelman and I posted the numbers originally...

 

2740lbs Vso= 54 knots = 62mph

1.2 x 54KIAS=65KIAS = 75mph

1.3 x 54KIAS=70KIAS = 81mph

2000lbs Vso= 48.5KIAS =56mph

2000/2740 = 0.723

Square root of 0.723 = 0.898

0.898 x 54K= 48.5K

1.2 x 48.5KIAS = 58KIAS = 67mph

1.3 x 48.5KIAS =63KIAS = 72mph

One can make a case for 1.2 or 1.3 x stall (I personally think 1.3 is overkill), but 1.4+...  That being said, throwing out replys that are devoid of explanation while providing no reference to weight does not teach anyone anything. "It works for me" is not a really useful answer.

If you would like to get book numbers for short fields the following technique is based on my own experience and what I've been told Al Mooney recommended.  I have verified its efficacy a number of times. 

 

Full flap steep descent with the wing unloaded at approx 1.1 x Vso for weight. About 40-50ft above the TD point, apply back pressure. The stall horn will sound at the first hint of back pressure in the decent, but the plane will not fall out of the sky. Continue applying back preassure steadily so that that yoke is full aft at the same time that mains are about 1' off the runway. The plane does not float, ground effect helps to arrest the descent and nothing more. The plane is firmly but not abusively planted and the flaps come up immediatly on touch down. I maintain back pressure while braking throughout the roll which is pretty short.

 

.... See. I am so happy!

[Shadrach]

Quote: scottfromiowa

Shad...The guy asked for input.  I provided it.  Advice.  I'm just a pilot, I'll leave that to the professionals.  I routinely land on 3500-4000 feet runways in all different seasons throughout the year when not landing at my home field CID...which has a crapload of runway.  I would feel comfortable landing on any 3000 feet runway.  I do all landings power off when runway is made and have read enough about stalling a Mooney on base to final turn that I don't get below a 100mph.  I routinely landed no flaps when solo for years and hundreds of hours, but have begun to us 1/2 flaps (two pumps) or full flaps...always full flaps when I have 600 pounds (my routine three passengers).  My "technique" was critiqued yesterday on three landings with a CFI on a 3500 feet runway including an emergency procedure "simulated power out" with power at idle from downwind (even with end of 18) with winds at 10-15 at 120...Instructor was pleased and signed off with no "issues".  I do NOT have a float issue with my plane coming over fence at 70-80 and coming down to flare point hearing stall horn.  Light breaking to first taxiway...I know at what speed my plane stalls and with power off over fence i'm into flare and down ALWAYS in first third of runway.  I believe I have addressed your questions.  If you fly slower.  Good for you.  I don't.

[Shadrach]

Quote: scottfromiowa

This is a Mooney forum.  It's about Mooney's.  Mooney's primarily have T.W.O. wing tanks.  People being AFRAID of Stalling a Mooney turning base to final...or being AFRAID to run a tank dry (your choice of words) means they have reviewed accidents and have seen FATALITIES from these.  They have educated themselves and modified their technique to AVOID THE RISK of having this occur.  If someone was coming over the fence at 100mph...and some Mooney pilots do they run the risk of floating, losing runway and forcing nose down, porpoising and suffering a prop strike, gear up or airfield over-run.  Gross excess in speed on final.  Something to avoid.  If you want to saw you know your tail is 1 foot off the ground...awesome.  I bow to your amazing pilotage, skill technique.  Minion signing off.

[scottfromiowa]

I have...reviewed stats.  I agreee more over-runs than stall-LOC.  I don't want either.  My technique has NEVER put me at risk for an over-run...or a flattened tire...Yet.

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: Shadrach

Actually Scott, You can not know that it means what you claim. My very anecdotal evidence leads me to believe that they are not researched notions, but rather OWTs mostly passed from CFIs and or senior aviators to the plebes coming up through the ranks.  I've learned a lot more in the last 5 years since I stopped taking as gospel, everything that any airman senior to me said, and started doing a little investigating of my own. Whenever, someone gives me an aviation "truth" my first question is why?...  If they can't tell me, then I will vet it on my own. 

We are BTW very close in terms of logged TT and TIT... I did start flying a Mooney rt seat when I was about 12 though.

If you review the accident stats, you will most certainly find that far more Mooney pilots have succeded in departing the end of a runway with the wheels locked and tires screeching then have managed to come up short.

[mooneygirl]

that is funny Ward.  I know that the missing post syndrome happened to more than one person.  I have taken, for the most part, to composing offline and cutting/pasting the text.  I am sure it was brilliant! Especially since you are from the Left-Coast!  You will have to fly up to Oceano for one of our fun events.

[fantom]

Two observations I have on this topic:

1. Get the flap settings, approach and landing speeds from your POH, if they don't work get with a Mooney savvy CFI and find out why.

2. Almost as bad as OWT landing rules, is the advise you get on any flying forum. Only only time I had touchdown issues is when I tried following some clever suggestion from Mooney talk.

As educational as this thread is, look at how easy it is to confuse MPH with KtsPH. Those of us that don't highlight our make and model are, IMHO, doing a disservice to the rest of us. Please include it in your signature block or under your address on the left. That way you only have to do it once. Thanks.

[scottfromiowa]

Using the rule of setting threshold approach speeds at 1.2 times the stall speed for the configuration being flown. I made several landings in the E model using 73 MIAS "over the fence" flaps full down and 80 MIAS with the flaps up. These speeds worked perfectly -- just the right amount of energy and airspeed for a nice flare and landing. And the landing distances are short when using these threshold speeds---weIl under 1000 feet

M20E Flight Test Bob Kromer...as taken from MAPA Log  Bob was solo with full fuel when he took off.  90 degree day.

[scottfromiowa]

At the lower end of the speed envelope, handling qualities are much better. Stall characteristics in the M2OE we flew for this report were identical to the C model we flew earlier - excellent. Stalls in early Mooneys are a non-event. There is no tendeney to drop a wing and a simple relaxation of the back pressure gets the airplane flying again quickly. I found the indicated stall speeds to be 67 MPH IAS clean and 61 MPH IAS in the landing configuration (gear down, full flaps) in 66U at the weight we were flying, almost identical to the C model flown earlier.

Same article 1964 M20E...Note stall speed for the test airplane as noted by Kromer...

[WardHolbrook]

 

It’s simple math…

1.2 Vso is a good “across the fence” speed. That’s what the factory and demo pilots use. That’s 75 ias at max gross weight; but it’s only 67 ias at lighter weights. Most of us aren’t out shooting T & Gs at max takeoff weight and we’re down nearer the lower figure at the end of our flights. If you’re using the max landing weight number when you’re light, you’re already 7 mph fast. If you're using 1.3 Vso, you're even faster. By the time you add a little for this and a little for that, it’s real easy to see how guys end up 10 or 15 mph or more above the ideal speed. That efficient Mooney wing loves to fly and that’s just exactly what it does when you get it down into ground effect at 1.2 Vso + 10 to 15 mph. No wonder Mooneygirl made the observation “of all the Ambassador events we have been to, we have seen our share of Mooneys floating floating floating.” Like I said before, this is where you end up using bad techniques to compensate for bad techniques – like raising the flaps in the flair. The idea of changing your approach speed to reflect your weight may be strange for some of you, but it is SOP in larger aircraft.

[scottfromiowa]

O.K...If those that have read my posts are coming away with my going into the flare at 70-80 mph...they are W.R.O.N.G.  When I say coming over the fence I'm hundred's of yards from the #'s on the runway.  I have power off at this point and often long before if I have runway made.  my speed is bleeding off and I am entering flare at about ? speed...I'm not looking at my speed...I'm just getting down to round out and flaring.  It's feel once over runway.  My plane decelerates when round out occurs over runway stalling with back pressure.

Are most looking at speed when over runway right before landing?  I'm not.  I don't apply any flap until stabilized on final.  (sounds like this is very different from others) Then I apply four pumps and roll trim up to counter and equel yoke pressure.  A grab of the J bar to make sure it's down and locked on short final.  Once I apply flaps on final I really am not that concerned about speed as it's coming down with application of flaps.  I do not let it get below 60, but usually pitch and decent are fine and I just have to time the flare looking for a squeeker.

If some are NOT landing with full flaps based on Kromer and MY 1966 M20E 80 mph is about right over the fence.  If full flaps 70-75 would appear about right.  I am dropping off from 80 so this would be where I'm at before rounding out and flaring...

and yes..."It WORKS FOR ME." in my 1966 M20E Shortbody.

[Shadrach]

I think there have been some miscommunications based on semantics. That being said, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to land a mooney without flaps unless it was practice for a flap INOP situation, or maybe in very strong cross winds where a little extra speed gives a little extra control authority.

I appreciate a lot of what Bob has to say. However, he has also made some rediculous statements like.

Quote: Bob Kromer

[scottfromiowa]

My dad had some wonderful qualities.  He also had some awful ones.  When he would debate he would bring in totally unrelated areas to damage the credibility of someone/something...getting away from the real point.  Bob like me and you and all men are human and make errors.  I don't know what that has to do with the debate regarding speed on an M20E...which is my aircraft...the one in which I am refering to in my statements on this topic.  What point is your discussion regarding other times when Bob made statements that had nothing to do with this topic?  He did discuss weight.  Empty weight, plus his weight plus full tanks...

There is a LOT of discussion about weight and stall speed yet there is only a minimal difference between stall speed at gross vs. a light load.  A speed of 75mph in my E is right between 70 and 80...a great speed for my plane and right where I discussed.  If I'm not landing on a short runway...ever and I'm NOT floating and as Kromer said landing in 1,000 feet what is your REAL problem with my not wanting to stall and taking it out of the equation while not increasing landing speed to a significant extent?

I unfortunately am a lot like my dad and probably don't like people that act like him very much.  When he would get to the point where he was insufferable I would just say "F#$% You!" and leave.  Gave him the satisfaction of "winning"

So..."F#$% You!"...

[alex]

I feel like I am in an episode of Jerry Springer!

[Lood]

I use much the same as many others - 100mph on downwind, 90mph on base and 80mph on final approach, closing the throttle once sure I'm going to reach the runway should the engine fail. The speed bleeds off to probably 65mph at touchdown - I never look at the ASI at that stage. I always use full flaps for all landings - be there a crosswind of what ever strength or not. I have never had any issues with cross wind landings using full flaps.

As for stalling during the base to final approach turn - well the base leg has certainly been flown too far and in the process the mark has been overshot. This now results in having to make a rather steep turn to get back onto the extended runway centerline - not the Mooney's fault. I fly with a highly experienced airplane and glider pilot from time to time and have sort of adopted their way of flying the circuit when coming in for a landing in a glider. They only have one shot at it so they tend to do it perfectly - every time. That way you'll make proper turns, at the appropriate time, at the correct speed and altitude, according to your position in the circuit. And if you get it completely right, you'll be able to land anywhere from a late downwind or during the base leg should you loose the donkey - even in a Mooney.

[sleepingsquirrel]

Hi Larry, Welcome to Mooney ownership , nice looking ship.

Regardless of the technique, landing a MOONEY GETS EVERYONES ATTENTION. I'm new to the Mooney airframe and have spent time reading everything I can find in order to improve my landings. They are becoming very consistant for me. I have about 25 hours now and you will find as I did that there are as many ways to land a Mooney as there are to skin a cat. Some of them have condsiderable more pucker factor than others. I was seriously debriefing myself after every take off/landing at first, making me tell myself everything that happened , and then asking,"why did that happen?" Just remember the only landing that anyone will see you do is the last WORST one, at least that is the one they like to talk about. You can make a hundred greasers but I'm here to tell you you will be singled out for the one ballooner , floater, longer than necessary,or "that's not the way I do it" landing.

You obviously know how to fly and land and take off. Now it's just about style.

 It didn't take me long to find out about the MOONEYs' notorious anti-gravity module. Just look for the switch ,it's usually unmarked . UP for take off DOWN for landing.

This was immediately helpful to me:

http://www.mooneyland.com/Properly%20Landing%20a%20Mooney.htm

[Shadrach]

Larry,

I think that if you use the equations posted in this thread, you will find that your landings improve. Try to master full flap landings. Landing full flaps will be gentler on equipment (especially brakes on shorter runways), and offers superior visability on final because of the inherent pitch change.

One thing that bothered me when I was green was the difference in feel at slow speeds. Mooneys tend to be firmer in roll than in pitch during most flight ops. However, as the plane gets slower the control harmony changes. This can feel foreign after spending time at higher speeds. This leads to the urge to fly a bit faster because it feels too soft or "mushy"... A good exercise is to go up and fly around @ 1.1 and 1.2 Vso in landing configuration, and don't forget your feet, the aileron/rudder interconnect is typicaly not enough in slow flight. Practice slow descents and shallow turns.  Take an instructor with you the next time if it makes you more comfortable.  Good luck!

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: scottfromiowa

My dad had some wonderful qualities...He also had some awful ones... So..."F#$% You!"...