F18Lumpy Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Hi all, I've been looking at Mooney's and lurking on the boards for a while. I've been actively watching the used market for about a year now and have been centering my efforts on the F and J models. Specifically I've been looking for aircraft with < 4000 TT and <= 1000 SMOH that looks nice, has a decent interior and a six pack panel. The longer I look, the more I realize that the acquisition cost of a nice example of these models is outside my reach right now so it's mainly a pipe dream at this point. I have a family of four (kids are 10 and 12) and have been doing some flying at a nearby USAF flying club in Piper Arrows. Almost all of my flight time with the club has been solo or with my daughter (wife and son don't really enjoy flying). I don't envision that changing much going forward, although I would probably try to do some limited XCtys with the whole family if I actually owned a plane. Upon reflection my missions would probably be 50% solo, 35% with two people and 15% with all four seats filled. Because of this, and the lower costs to get into an airplane, I've started giving more consideration to the E and C models. I've had my eye on this aircraft for a while but have been scared away by 5430TT and 1900SMOH. I keep coming back to her though because she looks nice, has NDH (that I can find throught the internet), has a decent interior, an updated (six pack) panel with a basic IFR GPS and the asking price is a good start ~$32K. Looking at VREF through AOPA, I'm coming up with a value of $23K because the motor is 100 hours shy of TBO. With a zero time motor she come's out at $43.9K which makes sense when you consider an O/H cost of ~$20K. Personally, I'm not real interested in buying an airplane only to go straight into O/H during the first year of owning my first aircraft. While researching the C model and the carb engine, I've come across several postings/opinions on the internet that tout the "bullet proof" nature of the O360 engine. Many have stated that it's not uncommon to go well beyond TBO on these motors, if properly monitored and cared for. If I could run this one safely to 2300-2500 TBO, that might open it up for closer consideration. I figure that would give me about 4-6 years of use before diving into the the cost of an overhaul. Any thoughts? Am I crazy to even consider this path? What do you think of the pictures, price, ad and equipment this one offers? Is it a fair deal if I could get it close to the VREF price ($23K)? How about C ownership in general vs. the E, F, and J. Is the slightly slower airspeed of the O360 offset by lower operating costs? How useable is the backseat in the C/E models for an occasional full load? Thanks for your time and I look forward to learning from your opinions and ownership experiences. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooneygirl Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Jeff, a size comparision between the C and E models is fair. There is a power differential between the IO360 in the E versus the O360 in the C. I am not sure about the difference in useful load. I love my E model. It simply performs like a champ. Sometimes we are packed pretty heavy, but not outside the envelope for safety. My father had a C model for 27 years. We flew cross country every year with two kids and two adults. For me, I like having the extra 20 horsepower. Just my thoughts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Jeff, With all due respect (and I mean that), I would recommend staying away from a purchase at this point. If one can't readily/easily afford a 50k plane, I would argue then you can't afford a 25K version of the 50k plane. In fact you probably could afford the 25k plane IF nothing were to go wrong. But there's a reason this plane is worth 25K and not 50k. You would really take it in the shorts if you bought the plane then got behind on maintenance. You would at that point have to give the plane away at a further great loss. Ramps and hangars around America are littered with such aircraft (for shame). This is certainly a Mooney forum and the answer to every "optimal plane for me" question is some variety of Mooney. If it is just you and your daughter flying, I'd recommend a Cherokee 140. Search and find a half-time one for ~25k. Great 2 place 110mph plane. Arguably as easy on ownership costs as it gets in certified aircraft. Not a long-distance cross country plane but faster/funner than driving. Or find a neglected Mooney and place your 25k into a partnership with the current owner bringing it up to speed. Best option I think if you have such an opportunity in your area and are set on a Mooney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F18Lumpy Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Jolie, Tom, thank you both for your replies. Tom, maybe I need to clarify my financial situation a bit. My logic is being driven by the fact that I really desire to pay cash for the plane and be done with it. I like not having a car payment, not having a boat payment and the idea of not having a plane payment. I could afford a lot more airplane (cost wise) if I were willing to take on debt to do so, but I'd prefer not to. My perspective has been that if I pay cash for the airplane, the lack of any type of monthly payment will allow me a greater amount of cash flow to throw directly into maintenance and operating costs rather than have a loan payment that could force me into the maintenance dilemma you raise. But, I've never owned an airplane before, is my logic in this regard flawed? As for the Cherokee, I've considered that option as well as a Cessna and even some older tail draggers (Cessna 140's and Luscombe 8E's/8F's). Truth be told I've been flying military aircraft for 15+ years and I enjoy the speed. I also have a hang up about fixed gear, but that's probably some Macho BS deal that maybe Jolie could help me work through. :-) Thanks again for the inputs, I really enjoy having you guys challenge my logic. It will only mean my final decisions will be that much better. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 How many hours are you currently flying yearly? Should play into what you can afford. I would be cautious with any Mooney that could be attained for $25,000. Prebuy from a good Mooney Service Center is a must. There's a lot of things that can get put together wrong on a Mooney over 45+ years. No reason to rule it out. How long ago was the engine put on? How regularly has it flown since? In the last 5 years? In the last year? I have a Cessna 172 with an IO-360 that has 2385 hours on it. Lowest compression is ~75/80 and I'll keep flying it. It was overhauled 37 months ago (A friend and I used to teach in it till I got bought off the field). That said, if this bird hasn't flown much in the past few years and the overhaul is old, I'd be cautious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F18Lumpy Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Thanks Parker. My flying has been limited as of late. I'm in the process of transitioning from a military flying career (no prior GA experience) to the world of GA flying. I've got 2300+ hours TT but only 16 since I've started dabbling in GA 12 months ago. Part of it is where I fly out of (45 mins away and it's a club) so it's not the most convenient to just up and decide to go flying at the last minute. Distance and aircraft availability have factored into it. Maybe I'm over estimating my use, but I really think I'd fly a lot more if I owned a plane and had it located much closer to home. I'll add your questions to my list. Thanks. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelerp Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I owned a 65 C model from 96 till I sold her in 08. A great airplane. I would also caution that buying a Mooney too cheap could wind up costing you much much more in the long run. There is bound to be deferred maint with a price that low. Forget about the engine being close to major. I've sold two airplanes with one having 1920smoh and the other having 1640 smoh. What sold them both was the obvious fact that I had pumped $$ into other aspects of the airplane. And, that they had not sat for any length of time. I guess my advice is...don't go too cheap. You usually get what you pay for. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilt Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Also check out mooneypilots.com flight test reports...its under the mapa log sample articles...I've had my 63C for about 5.5 years now... love it. May sell it....Got my eyes on the big O..Giggity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Quote: F18Lumpy Maybe I'm over estimating my use, but I really think I'd fly a lot more if I owned a plane and had it located much closer to home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldeano Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 You might want to keep looking. We bought a 63 c with 65 hours smoh, six pack guages, new prop, basic Garmin IFR package, paint 10, interior 8 all work and maintenance done at Lasar for the last 12 years for $38,000. Same deal, we wanted something we could pay cash for. However, Jolie is correct, if you plan on flying your growing family, you probably would be better served by an F. The C is good for the two of us and the dog. It also can hold four decent sized adults and full fuel and be within weight, but there is just no room in the backseat to fit them. It also has a semi low maneuvering speed. As far as engine TBO, most engines that are able to go beyond 2000 hours are ones that are flown all of the time and well maintained. Airplanes like to be flown, Keeps things lubed and sealed, and melts away that evil condensation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinChurch Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I bought a 67 "C" as my first airplane years ago and it was a great airplane that served me and my family well. The "C" is great, but the "E" with it's 20 more HP on the same fuselage is better. Which ever way you go, definitely take your time and invest in a Mooney Service Center pre-buy on any Mooney you purchase. As for paying cash, I think that is a great way to go but don't leave yourself short just in case something unforseen comes up. These are machines and they do break. Good luck on your search! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabremech Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I purchased a 66 C model in June and absolutely love it. Mine has just about every speed mod on it that can be done and performs like an E. Pick the airplane that suits your wants and needs and take it to someone you trust for a prebuy (A&P or MSC). Be patient in your search and the right one will come along. Good Luck. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsnyder Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Hi Jeff, I am in the same situation as you. I have been lurking around these forums for quite a while now and searching the adds. I've been looking at the F and C models, but as you, am thinking the C will do for me. Anyway... I was interested in that same airplane. In fact, I call the guy back around the middle of December. The owner seemed pretty nice. If I remember right, he has retired and can't afford to fly anymore. I expressed my concern over the high time engine and he just kept brushing it off saying that it had hundres more hours left in it. I told him that I was still concered and wasn't crazy about the idea of spening quite a bit in a year or two on a new engine. Anyway, he volunteered to email all the logs in PDF format. I told him that that would be great, but for some reason he never did. After never receiving the logs, I said screw it. One thing to keep in mind though is that I saw this plane in an earlier add back in November and he said in that add that he would be willing to negotiate the price based on having to put a new engine in the plane. Who knows, maybe he's changed his mind since then! Good luck on your search! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaitcev Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I guess my advice is...don't go too cheap. You usually get what you pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacachero Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 pending mechanical analisis of the bird...thats a good looking airplane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I love my C-model. It's fairly fast, and pretty frugal. On real XC, figure 30% less time and 10% less fuel than a 172. I average 9 gph and close to 140 kts. groundspeed. Home is 3000', and she goes in and out even at max gross just fine, and I never worry about the trees at either end. Space, though, can be tight. I took some cousins to Kitty Hawk this summer, departing and returning to a 3500' grass strip at the beach. Four adult males limited me to 34 gallons, and I made sure to refill to that level for the return trip, too. Flying with just the wife and I, though, I find the baggage capacity [including the back seat] to be just less than the not-packed-tight trunk of her Corolla. That fills the cargo area to above the back seat, and fills the back seat, too, with only my flight bag in arm's reach. Plates go on the floor, charts go between the seats, and sometimes her purse is at her feet. The extra length of an F would be very nice from time to time, but we only desire it once or maybe twice a year. The O-360 is a good, strong, simple engine. My only difficulties to date have been electrical . . . I suggest finding the threads here about what to look for when buying a vintage Mooney. George Perry has some good information there. There is much more to consider than engine time and manual vs. electric gear. Welcome to the club, and whatever you decide to do, as always, fly safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leesh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Jeff, I don't have anywhere near the experience as most of the people who have replied, but my purchase experience was very recent (bought my M20F two months ago). Also, I was in the same boat (airplane)... I could pay cash for a $30k plane and keep my completely debt free status without a mortgage or car loan. I looked at a C very similar to that one but with a bit less time on the engine and SMOH for the same amount. In the end I decided to go for a '67 M20F for $57k with 300 SMOH and a total time of 3100 hours. It also has a new interior and panel redo with a Garmin 430W. I ended up taking out a home equity loan to buy it and am really glad I made that choice. It's a buyers market right now, and my impression was that most planes are selling below the vref price. In my case, vref came out around $73k. However, the "cheap" Mooneys seemed to be selling right at or above vref. My theory is that they may be grabbed up faster since they're affordable to a larger segment of the population. So I figured it would be a better investment to get something a bit better. Just from my limited experience, you won't regret spending a bit more to get the plane you want with the panel you want (much more expensive if you try to upgrade it later) now. Alisha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urs_Wildermuth Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Jeff, I own a 65 C model that I picked up with an engine with 2500 SO and a real nice interior and cockpit.So being at 1900 hrs does not scare me at all. I had to finally do my engine at 2650 hours, so a lot more than that one has. Thing is, it can happen anytime. An engine with 300 since overhaul can go bad at you, as can one with 2000, but what is important is to be prepared and to know that if that happens, you'll need some 20k handy to get airborne again. I am exceedingly happy with mine. The C model is efficient in consumption (I run mine at around 8-9 gph and still get 140 kts). It does what I want it to do, it was a lot more airplane than I thought I could afford and it does well for the 2 of us. The concern I have is your growing family in a C-Model. If they are used to the space in an Arrow, the backseaters will be rudely surprised when they get in the back of a C. Maybe it might be worth looking for an G or F model with the longer cabin. Nevertheless, if you do a good pre-buy, it all checks out and you can get the price to where you want it, yea, you can keep looking until the cows come home but one day if all falls in place, you might as well go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F18Lumpy Posted February 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Thanks everyone. Lots of good input and food for thought. Alisha, where in MA are you at? I'm just north of Boston by about 30 miles. I think I looked at your F several times on Barnstormers. If it's the one I'm thinking of, you got a great plane and one I would have pulled the trigger on had I had the cash. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leesh Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Jeff, I'm in western MA and keep my plane at Northampton (7B2). I'm loving the plane. The only problem I found was that the Collins VOR head attached to the 430 wasn't working properly. I'm replacing it with a Garmin head that is better suited for the GPS. Alisha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwright27 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Hello Jeff, I have a 1966 M20C that I'm looking to sell, so I can upgrade! Its my first mooney and I kind of figured it wouldn't be my last. I love the plane and the only way I can get rid of it in good conscience is knowing I'm getting another. Stats are: 1966 M20C Mark 21 1325 SMOH 2900 TTAF Shadin Fuel Flow, Stec 20 Auto Pilot (Nice!), Apollo SL 60 Terminal GPS (coupled to STEC) Custom Cover and plugs Over 10k invested in the last year I've owned it Good Oil Analysis Beautiful exterior paint scheme and condition (just waxed), interior is a little older but neutral gray. Looking to sell for mid 40K I'd be happy to show it to you and chat about it if you'd like. It's a wonderful entry level complex and I have nothing but good things to say. I'm at the point now where I'll either dump tons of cash into avionics upgrades, or just buy a newer more expensive version. You can't go wrong with a mooney. Like the other guys are saying, if this is your first buy then be thorough and use your resources around you. Luckily I had a buddy with the exact same plane and he knew what to look for. It's definitely been a learning experience for me and I am way more comfortable and knowledgable going into a second purchase. Owning a mooney is fun! Take care.. Chris cwright27@ymail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drpep Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 I have a 67 E which has been extensively upgraded. I will be selling it shortly as I am looking at a 201. You may want to look at the gallery for my pics on this airplane. Send me an email if you are interested. ddrpep@shaw.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
231Pilot Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 When I bought my 67 C back in 2000, I was looking for an E or an F. I found a low time C, put about $15,000 in avionics and paint upgrades and was offered $5,000 more than I had in it on the day I picked up the finished product. I flew her for 6+ years, usually with 2 adults, a few times with 3 adults and never had a problem with performance. It is a good IFR platform, and the only critical option in my opinion is a carburetor temperature gauge. You can file at 140 kts. and hand fly the entire way without being overworked or getting behind the aircraft. Above all if you buy with the idea of upgrading, get a good airframe and powerplant, make moderate avionic and appearance upgrades and you won't take a major beating when you decide to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Quote: 201Pilot Above all if you buy with the idea of upgrading, get a good airframe and powerplant, make moderate avionic and appearance upgrades and you won't take a major beating when you decide to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwright27 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 I bought my C as my first plane. I figured it would be a good entry level complex. The way I figured I would either love owning my own plane or hate it..... I have to say I love it so much I now feel the pull to upgrade! What to do... I want to keep my C but I would drop 15k in avionics to bring it up to the level of IFR I would feel comfortable with. Any opinions? Has anyone with a C model put a garmin 430 with a full axis autopilot in? I understand with the Garmin 1000's, the 430's are getting cheaper. To step up to a J model with a garmin, hsi, and kap150 is easily 50k more than what I have in my plane, for only 15kts more! That and I have a 1000lb useful load. What to do! Of course, I've really been eyeballing Jimmy Garrison's 252 at All American.... My internal strife is testament to how good a C model is for a lower cost plane that will get you places.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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