Cirrus down in Houston - fatalities.

[CaptainAB]

Sad. Most of the 2012 SR 20's Ive seen are closer to the low 800's in useful load so I'd assume she was at least close on fuel. Maybe forgot to switch the tanks after a couple of go arounds. I'm sure its a tale as old as time. Probably just got rattled and stopped flying the plane. The autopilot in this thing could just about land itself. Took me 500 hours and my instrument rating before I had the guts (and probably stupidity) to land at a Class B airport. 

[cnoe]

Many Angel Flights and Med Center visitors land at KAXH or KSGR but Hobby LOOKS like a good idea if you're unaware of the congestion.

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[alex]

46 minutes ago, Txbyker said:

That is so sad.  I don't mean to put down other airplane manufacturers with this tragedy but that is four Cirrus's close to me by either personal knowledge of the event or my Houston location.  Last year, a friend of mines good buddy died in an SR20 departure from Chicago to Houston killing himself, son, and injuring his daughter.  Then last year an SR22 parachuted down in north Houston into a cul-de-sac of a housing development with passengers ok.  Then a few months ago in NW Houston at 60R an instructor, pilot, and his two step children perished while practicing.  Now this one at Hobby.  Not meaning to bash Cirrus but what is going on.

Russ

There's been a rash of Mooney accidents as well in the past few months, I wouldn't necessarily blame manufacturers.

[gsengle]

46 minutes ago, Txbyker said: That is so sad.  I don't mean to put down other airplane manufacturers with this tragedy but that is four Cirrus's close to me by either personal knowledge of the event or my Houston location.  Last year, a friend of mines good buddy died in an SR20 departure from Chicago to Houston killing himself, son, and injuring his daughter.  Then last year an SR22 parachuted down in north Houston into a cul-de-sac of a housing development with passengers ok.  Then a few months ago in NW Houston at 60R an instructor, pilot, and his two step children perished while practicing.  Now this one at Hobby.  Not meaning to bash Cirrus but what is going on.

Russ

There's been a rash of Mooney accidents as well in the past few months, I wouldn't necessarily blame manufacturers.

Not to mention the spate of Bonanza crashes.

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[yvesg]

Was she following a 737? Wake turbulence issue maybe?

Yves

[PMcClure]

Just now, yvesg said:

Was she following a 737? Wake turbulence issue maybe?

Yves

I thought about this and decided no. Wake turbulence shouldn't be too much of a factor in these winds and she wasn't following was she? And I am surprised at a stall spin as she was descending. But it sounded like the controller was turning her in tight to get ahead of a 737. Any of these or fuel could have been a factor. It sounds like the front seat passenger was possibly a pilot too?

 

[N9453V]

I based my M20G at HOU for about a year and have dozens of arrivals and departures from this airport, I can shed some light on operations there...

The airport is extremely busy and is effectively single runway since the majority of runways cross at HOU (and airliners can only use 4/22 or 12R/30L). The accident pilot was sequenced to runway 4 with the winds at 090 at 13G18. She slowed down too early and was asked to go around and join a right downwind for runway 35 due to conflicting traffic behind. She seemed to be having trouble getting lined up with 35 (maybe confusion with the runway layout) and ended up making 2 more go arounds due to being 2 high and unstabilized. The controllers were then making a 4th attempt to get her in on 4 or 35, but there was a tight line of arrivals and it looks like she lost control making a steep turn while getting too slow, but we'll have to wait for the NTSB to say for sure...

In terms of runway assignment, generally HOU will only change runways when a crosswind component exceeds 20 knots or tailwind component exceeds 10 knots. Approach has a long line of planes (I've had 10 or more in front of me multiple times), so it's a huge job to change runways. There is also impact to the arrival/departure routes from IAH.

On arrival, I'll usually keep 130 KIAS to the FAF, slow to 104 KIAS (Vle in the G), maintain that to 300ft and go power idle and add flaps 15. If I'm coming in on 12R and the bases are high enough, I'll usually offer to side step to 12L. On departure I'll usually get 12R at Mike, or 17/35. On a number of occasions, I've had to suggest alternate sequencing with approach coming into HOU since they are often unaware that I'll have to slow to 104 to get the gear down and maintain that. Whenever I am asked for best forward speed, I advise I'll need to slow to 104 knots to lower the gear and offer to take a vector behind the aircraft in front of me. I've only had one issue where the following traffic had to go around (it was a SWA 737 that didn't comply with its assigned speed reduction).

After reviewing the audio, I don't think the controllers did anything wrong. I only wish that either the controllers or the accident pilot had suggested she divert to EFD (Ellington Field) after the second go around where there is little traffic and she could have had her choice of runway. Perhaps the outcome could have been different. In any event, this is a tragic event, prayers for all the families involved.

-Andrew

P.S. Here is what an approach to runway 4 looks like and you can see the relative position of 35:

 

[Samurai Husky]

Condolences to the family; I cant imagine how the father feels to be battling cancer and then to lose his entire family.

The SR20 has a 7.5gal fuel imbalance limit. If she stayed on the same tank the whole time (4 go arounds) and then attempted a steep turn while being slow then that will aid in causing the plane to be uncoordinated and spin. I can easily see this happening with all of the distractions of crosswind, busy airport, stress etc. 

Also the SR20 has a 24kt XW component limit; I have experienced this IRL, its almost impossible to land the damn thing in that sort of conditions. Though i was on a 75ft wide runway, so would be unsure of how much easier it would be with 150ftx5000ft runway. Entering a 45* turn with 26kt XC is death waiting to happen; I didnt want to make a 20* turn let alone a 30* turn when it as at 24kts.

18-30kntw down the runway is difficult, but not impossible. 

I also am not sure i agree with ATC that she was too high on approach. Unless she was at TPA at the numbers, A SR20 with full flaps at idle power with a 30kt headwind is going to fall out of the sky like a brick. With 5000ft of runway, i think she could have easily re-lined up and landed with out needing to go around. The only reason i can think of as to why he told her to go around, was that he sequenced a jet behind her too close and was expecting that she would touch down at the numbers and get off the runway with out using the whole length. 

IDK, i dont like exceptionally large airports; They are crowded, you have to worry about wake and normally the transient tie downs are expensive. I would have just paid the extra $20 in uber fees and landed at pearland. You probably would have saved that much money in fuel costs just by the amount of taxiing you have to do at hobby (FYI, just going off of the maps here, i have no experience with hobby other than commercial); 

When i plan my flight to PHX, im not landing at KPHX, im going to KFFZ, yea, its about 10 mile farther away for someone to get me, but at least i dont have to worry about a southwest jet eating me up. IDK, thats just me. 

I feel thankful that i am learning in such a challenging area. Between the sr20, short runway, constant winds, crowded airspace etc. I feel that i am better prepared then a lot of people, which make me a safer pilot. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[PMcClure]

I felt the controller seemed awfully urgent to get her to turn into 4 (8:33), which would have put her in a tight turn.  Not my call if that is a contributing factor or not. 

[cnoe]

New surveillance video from the hardware store is out showing a slightly nose low spin into the parking lot. Very likely a stall-spin from slow maneuvering. I'd never heard of the Cirrus tank imbalance issue as reported by SH. Regarding crosswind turns though, the plane doesn't know it's in a crosswind until it touches the runway. The pilot may know but I'm not sure why you would limit your bank angle based on crosswinds. Still slow flight and steep banks aren't good. Does the Cirrus come stock with an AOA indicator?

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[N9453V]

34 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

Condolences to the family; I cant imagine how the father feels to be battling cancer and then to lose his entire family.

The SR20 has a 7.5gal fuel imbalance limit. If she stayed on the same tank the whole time (4 go arounds) and then attempted a steep turn while being slow then that will aid in causing the plane to be uncoordinated and spin. I can easily see this happening with all of the distractions of crosswind, busy airport, stress etc. 

Also the SR20 has a 24kt XW component limit; I have experienced this IRL, its almost impossible to land the damn thing in that sort of conditions. Though i was on a 75ft wide runway, so would be unsure of how much easier it would be with 150ftx5000ft runway. Entering a 45* turn with 26kt XC is death waiting to happen; I didnt want to make a 20* turn let alone a 30* turn when it as at 24kts.

18-30kntw down the runway is difficult, but not impossible. 

I also am not sure i agree with ATC that she was too high on approach. Unless she was at TPA at the numbers, A SR20 with full flaps at idle power with a 30kt headwind is going to fall out of the sky like a brick. With 5000ft of runway, i think she could have easily re-lined up and landed with out needing to go around. The only reason i can think of as to why he told her to go around, was that he sequenced a jet behind her too close and was expecting that she would touch down at the numbers and get off the runway with out using the whole length. 

IDK, i dont like exceptionally large airports; They are crowded, you have to worry about wake and normally the transient tie downs are expensive. I would have just paid the extra $20 in uber fees and landed at pearland. You probably would have saved that much money in fuel costs just by the amount of taxiing you have to do at hobby (FYI, just going off of the maps here, i have no experience with hobby other than commercial); 

When i plan my flight to PHX, im not landing at KPHX, im going to KFFZ, yea, its about 10 mile farther away for someone to get me, but at least i dont have to worry about a southwest jet eating me up. IDK, thats just me. 

I feel thankful that i am learning in such a challenging area. Between the sr20, short runway, constant winds, crowded airspace etc. I feel that i am better prepared then a lot of people, which make me a safer pilot. 

The SR20 doesn't have a crosswind limit; it has a max demonstrated crosswind component of 21 knots. I haven't flown a Cirrus, but in the Mooney, I've found that I can handle a crosswind of up to about 30 knots before I run out of rudder travel. The winds at the time were 090 at 13G18, so well below the demonstrated crosswind component and not difficult, imo.

As I stated in my post, runway 35 crosses runway 4 and there was a constant sequence of arrivals to 4, so if she was not anticipated to touchdown in time, she would have conflicted with the other arrivals.

I personally prefer large airports, nice long runways, ILS approaches and better facilities. Cost usually isn't much more. HOU is a great airport, but not a good place for inexperienced pilots. They expect everyone to be on their A game there, but do their best to assist regardless, unfortunately, in this case, there was a limit to what ATC can do.

-Andrew

Edited June 10, 2016 by N9453V

[Samurai Husky]

Sorry, yes demonstrated limit, not maximum. I was in a 24knt, as you pointed out demonstrated is 21knt for the G2, 20knt for the G3.

However, I have been in those conditions, If the wind is steady then you can handle it; But gusting will cause your plane to weather vain considerably. At least that has been my experience with the Cirrus. Its much easier to crab in those conditions with the Cirrus. It is also what Cirrus recommends be the standard technique when landing in cross wind.

While its true the plane doesnt know its in XW, improper XW technique could cause the plane to get slow and stall. 

For the fuel Imbalance: 

Section 2 of the SR20 POH under 'FUEL LIMITS'. 

"The maximum allowable fuel imbalance is 7.5 US gallons (1/4 tank)" 

This may or may not be a contributing factor. Just something i would suggest. 
 

With the newest video; Maybe its just the FPS of the camera, but it looks like the throttle is idle or they were out of fuel. You can see the prop spinning very slowly in the shadow of the plane as its coming down. Slow enough to make out the individual blades in the shadow and follow them turning. God that was hard to watch, im glad they stopped the video where they did. 

[gsengle]

Could you post a link to that video?

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[Samurai Husky]

I cant find the one i originally saw.... Now i found the full video and feel sick;

http://abc13.com/news/video-deadly-plane-crash-near-hobby-airport/1380393/

The second video is the full one;

[gsengle]

Hard to watch, easy to imagine that wasn't survivable. Sounds like classic traffic pattern stall spin. Does seem like this happens too often in the Cirrus, maybe because it is stall resistant, it bites harder when it does stall? May they rest in peace.

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[Samurai Husky]

I think i know what happened. She probably left her flaps down after aborting her landing on 35. So once she entered the left climbing turn for the 35 down wind, she stalled and was uncoordinated causing the spin. Its easy to stall with a full flaps turn. I was told never to exceed 10* of bank when doing slow flight. If she went into a 30* turn with full flaps, then that would explain all of this. 

Now the SR20 can climb with full flaps, but its a VERY shallow climb. If she was pitched for Vx to get back to TPA, then there is no way she would have made it; 

[cnoe]

Stall speed INCREASES with flap deployment in the Cirrus? Maybe not enough power available to overcome drag if flaps full, but I'm unsure about loss of lift. What do the experts think?

That video was tough to watch; the definition of falling out of the sky. There seemed to be no forward movement. I'm looking at AOA indicators today though I know it's no replacement for good airmanship.

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[gsengle]

One of my cirrus concerns was always control feel, given the bungee trim system. How does the trim situation change when you go to full power on a full flaps go around?

Certainly demonstrates that basic airmanship, even in this era of synthetic vision and autopilots, is a serious important business.

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[N9453V]

49 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

I think i know what happened. She probably left her flaps down after aborting her landing on 35. So once she entered the left climbing turn for the 35 down wind, she stalled and was uncoordinated causing the spin. Its easy to stall with a full flaps turn. I was told never to exceed 10* of bank when doing slow flight. If she went into a 30* turn with full flaps, then that would explain all of this. 

Now the SR20 can climb with full flaps, but its a VERY shallow climb. If she was pitched for Vx to get back to TPA, then there is no way she would have made it; 

Doubtful. Stall speed goes down dramatically with full flaps (from 65 to 56 with 0 bank and 78 to 67 with 45 degrees bank). Also why would you be so slow at Vx when climbing back to TPA?

-Andrew

sr20_stall.tiff

[Samurai Husky]

Yea, so im wrong; I just looked at the pictures and the flaps are clearly up.. so unless they were raised while entering into the spin, then they were most likely up. My thinking was drag. If you are pitched for climb as if your flaps were up, then your angle of attack would be to high and you would loose speed and stall. Thats all. 

Copa thinks it was a standard turn into a spin. ATC requested that she 'keep it tight' and you can see the bank angle was high and the altitude low. With 3 people in the plane, it was probably heavy and she started the turn early (before accelerating to VX) in order to keep it tight. Add in a tailwind of about 5knts gusting and that probably stalled her out. 

Thats what they are saying at least. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[N9453V]

40 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

Yea, so im wrong; I just looked at the pictures and the flaps are clearly up.. so unless they were raised while entering into the spin, then they were most likely up. My thinking was drag. If you are pitched for climb as if your flaps were up, then your angle of attack would be to high and you would loose speed and stall. Thats all. 

Copa thinks it was a standard turn into a spin. ATC requested that she 'keep it tight' and you can see the bank angle was high and the altitude low. With 3 people in the plane, it was probably heavy and she started the turn early (before accelerating to VX) in order to keep it tight. Add in a tailwind of about 5knts gusting and that probably stalled her out. 

Thats what they are saying at least. 

No offense, but your analysis doesn't make much sense to me... how many hours do you have in the SR20? I don't have any Cirrus time (around 1100 Mooney and 400 in other singles and twins) and I'm not familiar with Cirrus standardized training, but I'm baffled you'd ever be climbing at Vx.

Hopefully the NTSB can shed some light on exactly what transpired. I'm not going to guess what was going on that cockpit, but whatever happened it appears the result was a cross-controlled stall that resulted in a spin.

-Andrew

[Samurai Husky]

Sorry, they were typos; i meant Vy. Its what i get when i type to fast with out re-reading things. I dont know why i had vx stuck in my head. If you cant tell, still a student only been in aviation for 2 months, so sometime those get mixed up; I know speeds; Rotate 65, flaps up 85, climb 96; short field obstacle climb at 81. In general i can remember which is which but some times i forget....

Sorry i caused you so much stress over this. I never said i was an expert, i just said i had experience in a SR20 and there are some things i can see happening for one reason or another. I'll leave the topic alone now.

[Andy95W]

No matter what actually happened, or why, inexperience probably played a factor.  I feel that way even more after listening to the ATC recording.

The real lesson here for all of us (and maybe a little more for our less experienced friends who are still working toward the PPL) is that we all have to continue to learn and get better.  As Mooneymite's avatar says: Perpetual Student (even though he has 20,000+ hours).

The Private license isn't an end, it's a beginning.  It is a license to learn.

It's late, I'll get off my soapbox to get a beer.

[N601RX]

A hometown news outlet quoted family as saying she owned the plane and flew it regularly. It would be interesting to know of this was a carefully planned trip or a jump in the plane and go we will figure it out when we get there trip. 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, cnoe said:

LOTS of close airports here, some towered, some uncontrolled; 25 within the mode C veil. No need to land at Hobby unless you're getting worked on there. This is a primary airport for SWA that includes international operations. Really sad and hits home 'cause I fly that route frequently (Houston/ OKC) and live under the KHOU 04 ILS. While typing this I've heard several 737s pass overhead. Just too congested for an inexperienced/unconfident new pilot to take on.

I still want to know who popped the chute, her or emergency crews? In all pics (news and personal shots) the hatch is blown, the harness is deployed with the rocket motor clearly visible, but no chute open. NTSB should provide those details sometime.

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It's just as likely that the parachute was dislodged by the force of the impact.  Think back to the recent parachute landing in the east, after touch down the canopy slowly settled on to the building.  No where in this case did I see the canopy laying at the crash site.

Clarence