Cirrus down in Houston - fatalities.

[cnoe]

http://www.khou.com/news/local/3-killed-in-small-plane-crash-near-hobby-airport/238125980

This is a weird one. Class Bravo. Good weather. On 3rd VFR approach (1st two instructed to go around by ATC due to high approach) the plane apparently stalled and crashed in Ace Hardware parking lot. Chute appeared to be deployed (hatch popped and harness out) at crash site in photos but was likely too low to open.

I imagine the whole thing is on liveatc.net but I haven't heard anything but a small clip just yet.

[cnoe]

Here's the audio. Pilot struggles with basic airmanship. RIP.

 

KHOU-Jun-09-2016-1800Z.mp3

[Jeff_S]

That was chilling. This poor gal was clearly in over her head, trying to land at a busy class Bravo airport and being vectored for a runway that was quartering tailwinds at 8 gusting 18 and worrying about wake turbulence from a 737.  I know the controllers are trying to help people, but it seems he could have tried to have her clear out of the area and set up for a better runway. But I wasn't there...all I have to go on is the audio.

[PTK]

Eerie listening to her speak moments before her death.

She was definitely overwhelmed in a busy airport and the gusty winds really complicated things for her.

May they rest in peace.

[Danb]

OMG, I wish I hadn't listened to that, no words can describe what has occurred.

God bless.

[Marauder]

Very sad indeed. The FlightAware last data points are pretty sobering as well. Not sure how accurate these reports ground speeds are.  If there was a wind favoring 04/35 with the winds velocity at 15G20, seeing a ground speed of 55 while heading in a southwest direction suggests a fairly slow indicated airspeed. Even the ground speed of 67 while heading north suggests a low indicated airspeed.

[Zwaustin]

Very sad indeed. Prayers out for the families. I thought controller did a solid job accompanying and looking out for her even having her go around due to behing too high. He was patient in a very busy bravo airspace. 

[Danb]

Z. Agreed the controller seemed to have gone the extra mile in trying to assist her. It seems like the tight turns may have gotten to her especially looking at Chris's printout.

 

[M20S Driver]

Can someone familiar with the airport educate me on why she was cleared to land on rwy35 with winds out of East 13 gusting to 18?  Why not runway 4 or 12?  

[DXB]

Sad to listen to - controller sounded attentive, professional, and even supportive throughout.  In my plane the winds would have been beyond my personal minimums for 35, but not for 4. I've no clue what it's like to fly a a Cirrus in these conditions, or how hard it is to salvage if you end up too high in one. Also the pilot doesn't sound that rattled, so I can't read in her voice how much trouble she's having until it's too late. 

In her shoes, I hope I'd have had the courage to say I was having trouble, request rwy 4 when assigned 35, and offer to leave the pattern if necessary until the traffic calms down and I can get into trwy 4 without flying tight maneuvers at low altitude.  If anyone knows how best to phrase this kinda thing best, I will try to burn into my memory.  

I suspect I'm like  many inexperienced pilots- I pretty much try to do exactly what the controllers tell me and I've read a million times that I don't have to take what they give me if I'm having trouble.  But if placed in this situation, it's unpredictable what I would actually have done.

[cnoe]

Can someone familiar with the airport educate me on why she was cleared to land on rwy35 with winds out of East 13 gusting to 18?  Why not runway 4 or 12?  

I'm no expert in these matters but I live 1.5 nm outside the FAF for Rwy 04 and at times the SWA 737s are stacked up in a line on arrivals. It's also one of the two longest runways. I imagine sticking a GA plane in there is tough for controllers (and pilots). 12L is a GA friendly runway but is parallel to 12R which is also high volume.

I've landed there only twice and keeping up one's speed is important.

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[Marauder]

http://www.click2houston.com/news/emergency-crews-respond-to-incident-near-hobby-airport

[1964-M20E]

Sad RIP

I have flown into Hobby yes it is very busy.  As for what runway that was in use I have some thoughts but will hold on to them for now.

 

 

 

[Mcoyne34]

38 minutes ago, DXB said:

In her shoes, I hope I'd have had the courage to say I was having trouble, request rwy 4 when assigned 35, and offer to leave the pattern if necessary until the traffic calms down and I can get into trwy 4 without flying tight maneuvers at low altitude.  If anyone knows how best to phrase this kinda thing best, I will try to burn into my memory.  

I suspect I'm like  many inexperienced pilots- I pretty much try to do exactly what the controllers tell me and I've read a million times that I don't have to take what they give me if I'm having trouble.  But if placed in this situation, it's unpredictable what I would actually have done.

 

Use plain English and tell them what you need or want.  The tower controller saw her go down, he doesn't want to have to live with that. I'm a controller myself, and I actually spoke to that exact airplane earlier today. She transitioned through my airspace.  She sounded unsure over the radio the whole time. 

 

 If you cannot except a runway due to winds, you need to say something.  It is your life on the line. Not all controllers are pilots.  And at an airport like Houston hobby, they're used to talking to professional pilots, who have tons of experience and can typically do whatever you need them to do.  The controller wasn't asking too much of her. 

 

Anyways, if you as the pilot feels uncomfortable at any point in time, you need to say something. 

 

Unfortunately it came down to an uncoordinated turn at slow speeds resulting in a flat spin.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Mcoyne34

[Bob]

1 minute ago, Mcoyne34 said:

 

Use plain English and tell them what you need or want.  The tower controller saw her go down, he doesn't want to have to live with that. I'm a controller myself, and I actually spoke to that exact airplane earlier today. She transitioned through my airspace.  She sounded unsure over the radio the whole time. 

 

 If you cannot except a runway due to winds, you need to say something.  It is your life on the line. Not all controllers are pilots.  And at an airport like Houston hobby, they're used to talking to professional pilots, who have tons of experience.  The controller wasn't asking too much of her. 

 

Anyways, if you as the pilot feels uncomfortable at any point in time, you need to say something. 

I have had 3 different conversations, with 3 pilots over the last couple months.  Two in flight and one on the ground.  The common element was each of them saying, "that's what the controller told me or wants me to do".  I reminded them of the word "unable" and their option to request.  Also that an aircraft only has one pilot in command and it's not the controller!

Controllers are here to help!  They are just like us and members of our team.  They will find a solution to allow your request or to overcome a obstacle that you share with them.

Mcoyne34, Thanks for coming forward and telling everyone to speak up!  Low time or low experience pilots need to hear it from a controller.

[Mcoyne34]

Bob, you're correct. Use the word unable. It's your life on the line, not the controllers. 

 

If pilot said they couldn't land 35, the tower controller could've asked the approach controller to give a bigger gap for runway 4.  That kind of stuff happens all the time. But the controller can't read your mind. Pilot has to speak up. Don't be scared of ATC. We're people too. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by Mcoyne34

[PMcClure]

No fire, no fuel spill..... 3 go arounds, 3 people on board for a 3 hour flight. Fuel starvation?  The plane doesn't look that mangled, and no fire. I am disappointed there were no survivors. 

[steingar]

I would probably divert to another airport if I was having that much trouble.  One assumes there are other airports in Houston.

[Txbyker]

That is so sad.  I don't mean to put down other airplane manufacturers with this tragedy but that is four Cirrus's close to me by either personal knowledge of the event or my Houston location.  Last year, a friend of mines good buddy died in an SR20 departure from Chicago to Houston killing himself, son, and injuring his daughter.  Then last year an SR22 parachuted down in north Houston into a cul-de-sac of a housing development with passengers ok.  Then a few months ago in NW Houston at 60R an instructor, pilot, and his two step children perished while practicing.  Now this one at Hobby.  Not meaning to bash Cirrus but what is going on.

Russ

[PMcClure]

Just now, Txbyker said:

That is so sad.  I don't mean to put down other airplane manufacturers with this tragedy but that is four Cirrus's close to me by either personal knowledge of the event or my Houston location.  Last year, a friend of mines good buddy died in an SR20 departure from Chicago to Houston killing himself, son, and injuring his daughter.  Then last year an SR22 parachuted down in north Houston into a cul-de-sac of a housing development with passengers ok.  Then a few months ago in NW Houston at 60R an instructor, pilot, and his two step children perished while practicing.  Now this one at Hobby.  Not meaning to bash Cirrus but what is going on.

Russ

Lots of Cirrus's flying around, new pilots in most of them, a plane prone to spin and stall at low altitude, marketing glitz obscuring risks. MHO

 

[Piloto]

It sounds as she had some problem with perspective vision, mental response, vertigo and awareness. Wonder what medications she had before the flight. Maybe antidepressant. The autopsy will tell.

José

Edited June 10, 2016 by Piloto

[Marauder]

15 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

Lots of Cirrus's flying around, new pilots in most of them, a plane prone to spin and stall at low altitude, marketing glitz obscuring risks. MHO

 

I looked her up in the FAA database. I think she was a fairly new pilot and did not possess an instrument rating. I couldn't imagine going into a busy Bravo with limited experience.

[Browncbr1]

My CFI tells me that cirrus charges CFis big bucks and makes it nearly impossible for them to be certified to train pilots in them.  I wonder if this leads to general lack of cirrus specific training for their pilots leading to greater risk?   I know here in Knoxville where cirrus is opening their vision center, they have been advertising for a long long time for salaried flight instructors.  My guess is that once they are fully up and running, they will require buyers to train there and fully block independent CFis from being able to train regardless.   This might be me just reading into it, but I hope these don't turn out to be greed driven death statistics.  

Edited June 10, 2016 by Browncbr1

[cnoe]

I would probably divert to another airport if I was having that much trouble.  One assumes there are other airports in Houston.

LOTS of close airports here, some towered, some uncontrolled; 25 within the mode C veil. No need to land at Hobby unless you're getting worked on there. This is a primary airport for SWA that includes international operations. Really sad and hits home 'cause I fly that route frequently (Houston/ OKC) and live under the KHOU 04 ILS. While typing this I've heard several 737s pass overhead. Just too congested for an inexperienced/unconfident new pilot to take on.

I still want to know who popped the chute, her or emergency crews? In all pics (news and personal shots) the hatch is blown, the harness is deployed with the rocket motor clearly visible, but no chute open. NTSB should provide those details sometime.

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[Marauder]

9 minutes ago, cnoe said:

LOTS of close airports here, some towered, some uncontrolled; 25 within the mode C veil. No need to land at Hobby unless you're getting worked on there. This is a primary airport for SWA that includes international operations. Really sad and hits home 'cause I fly that route frequently (Houston/ OKC) and live under the KHOU 04 ILS. While typing this I've heard several 737s pass overhead. Just too congested for an inexperienced/unconfident new pilot to take on.

I still want to know who popped the chute, her or emergency crews? In all pics (news and personal shots) the hatch is blown, the harness is deployed with the rocket motor clearly visible, but no chute open. NTSB should provide those details sometime.

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The article I posted indicated they were traveling there to visit the father of her husband. The other passenger was the brother of her husband. They were headed to MD Anderson. I can see why they picked Hobby.