Electric Fuel Pump Failure - M20F....

[sreid]

Hi Bill,

 

Where did you find the kit for $1200? I was quoted $2834 a year ago. I'd like to know if there's a place selling <1/2 price parts!

 

Apparently $2800 is what you were quoted from at least one place too......from your post I cut and pasted from April.

 

Steve

 

DrBill

Lives Here

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• Members
• 454 posts

• LocationMint Hill, NC
• Reg #:N5612Q
• Model:65 M20E

Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:38 PM

Mooney tech support responded with the kit price and availability...

The kit p/n is 940018-503. This replaces the Dukes pump with the Weldon pump. The kit includes the installation drawing, fuel lines, pump, and hardware. The kit can be ordered by contacting serviceparts@mooney.com  4 - 5 week leadtime. 2834.08

 

BILL

[funvee]

Photo update... Here's some shots from under the panel.

 

Also, I spoke to Weldon sales and while they said that the A8163A is the correct pump, they also said that the bracket and pump assembly would have to be a field approval if I don't do the method through Mooney.  He said they don't have a 18000 model for the replacement of the 1499-00-19 but it's on the list of ones to do.

 

So if anyone has the drawings about where to move the bracket too and what the weldon bracket looks like, that would be great!

 

Thanks,

Shawn

 

[DrBill]

 

Hi Bill,

 

Where did you find the kit for $1200? I was quoted $2834 a year ago. I'd like to know if there's a place selling <1/2 price parts!

 

Apparently $2800 is what you were quoted from at least one place too......from your post I cut and pasted from April.

 

Steve

 

DrBill

Lives Here

• 
• Members
• 454 posts

• LocationMint Hill, NC
• Reg #:N5612Q
• Model:65 M20E

Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:38 PM

Mooney tech support responded with the kit price and availability...

The kit p/n is 940018-503. This replaces the Dukes pump with the Weldon pump. The kit includes the installation drawing, fuel lines, pump, and hardware. The kit can be ordered by contacting serviceparts@mooney.com  4 - 5 week leadtime. 2834.08

 

BILL

 

You are right.. the 1.2 price was from "memory"... Shows you how poor my memory is.

BILL

[DrBill]

Those are great pictures.  I'll take some of the Weldon pump and you can see the size difference.

BILL

[N601RX]

If I remember correctly from when I from several months ago when I looked, Spruce sells the weldon pump for around $900. Someone needs to post the Mooney drawings. I've saw some of their other drawings that provide all the necessary dimension and material spec to fabricate parts from. Hopefully these do also.

[Marauder]

If I remember correctly from when I from several months ago when I looked, Spruce sells the weldon pump for around $900. Someone needs to post the Mooney drawings. I've saw some of their other drawings that provide all the necessary dimension and material spec to fabricate parts from. Hopefully these do also.

I looked at the date when my Weldon conversion was done and realized it was a year before I switched to the mechanic that I have been using for the last 16 years. The prior mechanic is no longer wrenching on small planes and his shop is closed. I thought maybe I had the drawings in my service or parts manuals, but I don't. Sorry.

[DrBill]

Here are pictures of the Weldon so you can see the size difference:

 

                                      Dukes     Weldon

Motor end to bracket     3 5/8         3 3/8

Fitting Width                   1 5/8        3 1/2

Fitting end to bracket     1 5/8         3 3/4

Overall length                  5  1/4       7 1/8

 

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

Here is an option, Call Russ at DG supply in Michigan. He can rebuild your existing one. No kit needed, you know it will fit.

800 446 8160

 

Seconded.  Russ is top notch. IRANd mine for $200. Turned around in 1 week. Ahead of schedule and under budget... Russ has a reputation for under promising and over delivering!! 

[N201MKTurbo]

What do you have against the dukes pump? I have been running them for 30 years. They seem pretty reliable. I've overhauled a few. But they have all lasted well over a thousand hours. Nothing to make me want to spend thousands of dollars to get rid of it.

BTW the difference between the fuel injection pump and the pump for the carbureted engine is just the setting of the internal pressure regulator. The spring is different.

[Shadrach]

Yes, please share your thought process on changing pump styles and fabricating brackets when in most cases you could just IRAN the original for well under a grand? If you'd gone this route, you'd be 75% of the way through it by now and likely back in the air before this weekend...

[Rhumbline]

Though you're determined to go with the Weldon conversion I'm chiming in nonetheless.  I went through this a few months ago and elaborated on it in another thread.  I'm among those who are not convinced as to the inferiority of the Dukes pump as mine was original to the airplane and was thus 45 years old and had over 1300 hours on it.  It still worked but leaked throught the vent while running.  I'd have reconditioned that pump but for the time involved so went with a newly manufactured direct replacement from CJ Aviation.  The pump was $1,250 after core credit and two or three of hours of labor.  I'm not touting this as the best option but it certainly seems less complicated/expensive and you still end up with a new pump.  

[funvee]

What do you have against the dukes pump? I have been running them for 30 years. They seem pretty reliable. I've overhauled a few. But they have all lasted well over a thousand hours. Nothing to make me want to spend thousands of dollars to get rid of it.

BTW the difference between the fuel injection pump and the pump for the carbureted engine is just the setting of the internal pressure regulator. The spring is different.

For me, it's the plastic vanes... IF, I can get the full info on the process (drawings), I want to go with something (like the Weldon) that can't take out the downstream mechanical pump when the vanes break. That and the 'Dukes not available anymore' issue have me looking for a solution that can be quickly replaced if it ever does fail. Being in Canada, doing a ship out to rebuild is a major downtime and PITA to do customs etc. replacement from aircraft spruce would be overnight if I get the Weldon solution in place.

Just my thinking, not saying its correct for everyone.

[funvee]

Though you're determined to go with the Weldon conversion I'm chiming in nonetheless.  I went through this a few months ago and elaborated on it in another thread.  I'm among those who are not convinced as to the inferiority of the Dukes pump as mine was original to the airplane and was thus 45 years old and had over 1300 hours on it.  It still worked but leaked throught the vent while running.  I'd have reconditioned that pump but for the time involved so went with a newly manufactured direct replacement from CJ Aviation.  The pump was $1,250 after core credit and two or three of hours of labor.  I'm not touting this as the best option but it certainly seems less complicated/expensive and you still end up with a new pump.

Do you know the part number for the cj one? Is it a straight bolt in replacement with no other changes required? Does it use the nylon vanes like the original dukes.

Thanks!

[Marauder]

I'm trying to remember when I replaced my Duke pump with Weldon back in the 90s, why I went this route. Since I'm a cheap b&^%rd like the rest of you, I suspect it was a concern over the availability of Duke pump parts. I seem to recall something about Duke getting out of the business and a concern replacement parts were not going to be available any more. Then again, the Weldon conversion back in the 90s may have been price competitive with the Duke's rebuild price (they were rebuilding them back then).

 

Anyone own their Mooney in the 90s and remember any of the history?

[Shadrach]

For me, it's the plastic vanes... IF, I can get the full info on the process (drawings), I want to go with something (like the Weldon) that can't take out the downstream mechanical pump when the vanes break. That and the 'Dukes not available anymore' issue have me looking for a solution that can be quickly replaced if it ever does fail. Being in Canada, doing a ship out to rebuild is a major downtime and PITA to do customs etc. replacement from aircraft spruce would be overnight if I get the Weldon solution in place.

Just my thinking, not saying its correct for everyone.

How many Dukes pumps have taken out a the mechanical fuel pump when they fail?  Is this a new MOF that I've not heard of?

 

In terms of major downtime. If you had UPS'd your pump to Russel at DG the day you started this thread, you'd likely be installing an IRAN'd pump this weekend...

[N201MKTurbo]

For me, it's the plastic vanes... IF, I can get the full info on the process (drawings), I want to go with something (like the Weldon) that can't take out the downstream mechanical pump when the vanes break. That and the 'Dukes not available anymore' issue have me looking for a solution that can be quickly replaced if it ever does fail. Being in Canada, doing a ship out to rebuild is a major downtime and PITA to do customs etc. replacement from aircraft spruce would be overnight if I get the Weldon solution in place.

Just my thinking, not saying its correct for everyone.

 

There is an AD that requires a screen downstream from the pump to catch the veins if they leave the pump. Your plane should already have this screen. My F and J both had it.

 

What makes you think the Weldon pumps won't eventually come apart?

[N201MKTurbo]

For the money you are spending you could buy a spare dukes to carry back in the hat rack.

[jetdriven]

Dukes fuel pump overhauls are now sole-source from Quality Aircraft Instruments and the last time I bought one it was 900$ for an OH.  Now every version of them is 1300$.   When we bought our plane, the pump was leaking, they exchanged it for a QAI overhauled one, which failed after about 10 minutes run time.  There were no cores available, Dukes had my old pump and had to rebuild it, and our plane sat on the ground three weeks, and we paid them 2 grand (pump plus core, on top of the first one we bought) and we finally got that back after another 6 weeks.  What a complete nightmare. With the plastic vanes and carbon shaft seals, no wonder there are all these bold print warnings about mandatory 10 year overhauls and not running continuously or dry.  At least the Weldon has a real metal impeller and is rated for continuous duty.  They use them for fuel pumps on race cars etc.

 

http://www.qualityaircraftaccessories.com/products/aircraft-fuel-pumps-1/dukes-fuel-pumps

[Shadrach]

So Russ is done with them?

[jetdriven]

So Russ is done with them?

From what I hear Aeromotors IRAN's or overhauls them but with an alternate seal. I heard 2 reports that that fix isnt any better than the Dukes part.  

[Shadrach]

DG resealed mine 3yrs ago. No issues. It was 10 years since it had been last opened...

[Rhumbline]

Do you know the part number for the cj one? Is it a straight bolt in replacement with no other changes required? Does it use the nylon vanes like the original dukes.

Thanks!

 

In my instance, the CJ P/N was 4140-00-21ACJ (replacing a Dukes 4140-00-21A).  My guess is that your M20F will require a 4140-00-19ACJ but you must in no way, shape or form make that assumption.  I'd contact CJ Aviation (1-800-227-5772) and talk to your mechanic for guidance.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce is a scource for CJA's pumps and can probably help also.

 

My mechanic did mention at the time that a couple of screws were either too long or too short.  I know not which but the total invoice for parts ($13.16 not including the pump of course) and labor (3.2 hrs in fact) were under $300 so there were no substantive changes and there should not have been as it's ostensibly a direct replacement.

 

I cannot answer as to the composition of the vanes but would again guess that they are not metal given the similarity to the Dukes though CJA can surely answer that question as well.  Good luck in whatever you decide to do!      

[funvee]

In my instance, the CJ P/N was 4140-00-21ACJ (replacing a Dukes 4140-00-21A).  My guess is that your M20F will require a 4140-00-19ACJ but you must in no way, shape or form make that assumption.  I'd contact CJ Aviation (1-800-227-5772) and talk to your mechanic for guidance.  I also see that Aircraft Spruce is a scource for CJA's pumps and can probably help also.

 

My mechanic did mention at the time that a couple of screws were either too long or too short.  I know not which but the total invoice for parts ($13.16 not including the pump of course) and labor (3.2 hrs in fact) were under $300 so there were no substantive changes and there should not have been as it's ostensibly a direct replacement.

 

I cannot answer as to the composition of the vanes but would again guess that they are not metal given the similarity to the Dukes though CJA can surely answer that question as well.  Good luck in whatever you decide to do!

Thanks, I spoke to cj aviation today and they rattled off a list of things that are improved over the Dukes in theirs and you are correct the M20F one is the 4140-0019acj. I don't remember all the stuff but some of it was, permanent magnets instead of wound, no rubber used in the seals for the relief section. It's a direct replacement with no bracket needed . They did say that it is still the nylon vanes and that the upsteam filter is a must for any pumps with them.

I would still prefer the Weldon impeller but this is my second choice, thanks for mentioning them.

Looks like a better solution to me personally.

Thanks!

[funvee]

There is an AD that requires a screen downstream from the pump to catch the veins if they leave the pump. Your plane should already have this screen. My F and J both had it.

 

What makes you think the Weldon pumps won't eventually come apart?

I'm just going by the reviews I've been finding on the internet about them... Tons of trash spoken about dukes but I haven't found anything but positive comments about the Weldons. Not scientific research by any stretch but the cool thing about owning our own planes is that we don't have to install something we aren't comfortable with when here are other options. I'm going to have to verify I have the upstream filter tomorrow when I'm out.

Thanks

[SkyPilot]

Good bunch of info. My pump is still ok so this was just research reading.

 

Thanks Folks.