buying aircraft with damage history, good idea, bad idea?

[Robert C.]

As I noted in a previous post, I'm looking at joining the ranks of aircraft owners, with an Ovation at the top of my wish list.

 

So in researching aircraft I ran across a listing (for sale by owner) for a 2004 O2 that looked nice. A little googling found an NTSB entry and the logs (had been previously listed and taken off the market it seems). The aircraft had a gear up landing and a reman engine in 2008.

 

Is this the kind of thing a simple buyer like myself (non A&P, no prior aircraft ownership, modest number of hours) should stay away from? Or is the repair history on aircraft so good nowadays that if a thorough pre-buy signs off on the A/C I should feel comfortable to pursue it?

 

Very interested in the perspectives of those of you with more experience buying and selling.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

The O2 in question is N444HK.

 

Robert

 

 

Occurrence Date 2008-07-19      Aircraft Make MOONEY Aircraft Model M20R      Damage SUBSTANTIAL Document Last Modified 2013-07-31                Narrative (-23) WHILE CONFIGURING THE AIRCRAFT FOR LANDING THE PILOT WAS DISTRACTED BY A FAULTY AIRSPEED INDICATOR. IT WAS READING HIGHER THEN NORMAL WHEN THE REACHED FOR THE LANDING GEAR TO EXTEND IT. HE TOUCHED THE LANDING GEAR HANDLE BUT DID NOT EXTEND THE LANDING GEAR AND CONTINUED TO TRY TO SLOW THE AIRCRAFT DOWN. THE RESULTS WERE THAT HE LANDED GEAR UP ON THE RUNWAY AT 34R. THE LANDING GEAR WARNING SYSTEM DID NOT FUNCTION WARNING HIM HIS GEAR WAS STILL UP.

[DrBill]

Damage history, like a gear up, dings the value no more than 5% in my opinion.   I bought my "E" model with a gear up and it was properly repaired by a well known shop. My full pre-purchase inspection found little evidence of it (the retracable step would hang in the up position periodically) and it was easily fixed. Just know that t will knock the resale value down a little when you go to sell.

BILL

[triple8s]

Damage history will hurt the resale yes but the older the history isnt as much a hit as recent history. The biggest concern IMHO is the repairs and documentation. Were the repairs made properly, was EVERYTHING repaired? Often times people cut corners and dont document repairs and this can and usually does make for most unpleasant suprises later down the road. If a plane has been on its belly I'd look to see what was done with the engine. Also I'd go over the logbooks and try to find photos of the accident before repairs they can tell you a lot.

[N9453V]

If the work was done by a Mooney Service Center and there are proper records, it should be a non-issue. My 1970 G model had a gear up landing and prop strike before I bought it. Both were repaired by Dugosh and the repairs resulted in new belly panels, a brand new prop and the engine being sent back to Lycoming for inspection.

 

-Andrew

[PMcClure]

I suggest you take a real good look at the log books. I think this is a plane I looked at about 1 year ago but ruled it out because there were too many issues. A friend of the owner was selling it because he lost his medical due to or Alzheimer's. The entries in the log book were not conclusive about the repairs. After talking with the owner, he could not remember doing the repairs or not. I am not sure it is the same plane, but it is the same year and unique paint scheme. I wouldn't mind buying a good deal on a plane with minor damage history if the repairs were done right and there is some good history after the repairs. If this is the same plane, maybe they took it off the market and did the repairs. I don't want to talk you out of a good deal, but check it out carefully and get a good pre-buy. 

[triple8s]

BTW if you dont have Mooney experience I strongly suggest you choose an instructor who has LOTS of Mooney experience and has experience with the long body. Just sayin.....

[PMcClure]

I suggest you take a real good look at the log books. I think this is a plane I looked at about 1 year ago but ruled it out because there were too many issues. A friend of the owner was selling it because he lost his medical due to or Alzheimer's. The entries in the log book were not conclusive about the repairs. After talking with the owner, he could not remember doing the repairs or not. I am not sure it is the same plane, but it is the same year and unique paint scheme. I wouldn't mind buying a good deal on a plane with minor damage history if the repairs were done right and there is some good history after the repairs. If this is the same plane, maybe they took it off the market and did the repairs. I don't want to talk you out of a good deal, but check it out carefully and get a good pre-buy. 

I just looked back at the records and this is the plane I looked at in October 2012. I can't recall all the details, but I remember I left it behind because I could not confirm the required repairs had been done. At the time they were asking $209 and I thought I could get it for $199 which would have been a steel. It had everything I wanted and was very hard to walk away from. Check to make sure they have all the required repairs. Seems like there was a gear up followed by one or two prop strikes where the required inspections were not done and some work done that was not in the log books. 

[Robert C.]

@PMcClure: yep, sounds like the same one. Now asking $219k. There was a prop strike a few months after the gear-up landing and the owner declined to comply with the SB that suggests an engine teardown after the prop strike. Looks like the original repairs were done by Dugosh which I understand has a good reputation.

 

If I read the logs right the aircraft has only averaged 20hrs/year or so after the repairs.

 

Can't find the logs from after the prop strike on the web so would need to contact the seller to get up-to-date info. Love the idea of the lower dashboard and the 530/430 combo but have real doubts based on your experience and my read of the situation so far.

 

Robert

[Robert C.]

BTW if you dont have Mooney experience I strongly suggest you choose an instructor who has LOTS of Mooney experience and has experience with the long body. Just sayin.....

 

yep, Good advice and point well taken. My game plan is to get one of "known" Mooney instructors to do the transition training.

 

Depending on timing I'm also toying with the thought of combining the purchase and transition training with getting my IFR ticket. Not sure though if it would be better to spend a few months getting to know the aircraft before doing the IFR, or jumping straight in and learning the aircraft and the IFR stuff all at the same time.

 

Robert

[BigTex]

It's hard (if not impossible) to find a 40-50 year old aircraft that has flown regularly for a 1/2 century and not have some damage history. For me, if they said there's not been any damage, that would be a red flag and cause me to dig deeper.

[PMcClure]

@PMcClure: yep, sounds like the same one. Now asking $219k. There was a prop strike a few months after the gear-up landing and the owner declined to comply with the SB that suggests an engine teardown after the prop strike. Looks like the original repairs were done by Dugosh which I understand has a good reputation.

 

If I read the logs right the aircraft has only averaged 20hrs/year or so after the repairs.

 

Can't find the logs from after the prop strike on the web so would need to contact the seller to get up-to-date info. Love the idea of the lower dashboard and the 530/430 combo but have real doubts based on your experience and my read of the situation so far.

 

Robert

I was ready to pounce since I thought Dugosh had done repairs. But then there is at least one, if not two prop strikes after his repairs. Also, it is not that great a deal compared to some Ovations I have seen out there with a clean bill of health. 

[carusoam]

How strong are your personal mechanical skills?

My thoughts, if I were to consider buying an Ovation...

(1) Pre purchase inspection at the MSC of your choice. With a thorough review of the log books yourself with a side by side review with the mechanic at the MSC.

The objective 1: determine the real situation of the damage from the G/U and subsequent repairs.

The objective 2: determine the real situation of the subsequent prop strike and subsequent repairs.

To me, it sounds like there have been two accidents, and only one fix. Does that sound right?

This means there is some work to get done, most likely a tear down of an engine that has low hours and some prop work.

The supposed personal health history of the pilot/owner or why the accidents happened doesn't help this conversation any. Stick to the facts, what was broken and how it got repaired. Gear ups and ground strikes are much different than landing in the woods. Mooneys have been built to handle the gear ups better than the trees. Although the Mooneys have done better than the trees in most cases.

If your skills are not that strong, get stronger skills from somewhere, rent them, or borrow them. Just don't risk your financial situation to get more than you can afford.

This is the guidance I used to purchase my Ovation (mine doesn't have a damage history). It was a fair amount of risk. If the MSC misses something it could be costly!

Expect one MSC to do the fixes and possibly another organization to review the work with you that has recently been completed.

What was the cost of the tear down? Did it get a new prop?

If it got a new prop, what did it get? O3s use a three blade TopProp.

When the engine was recently factory reman, did it get the O3's IO 550N with 2700rpm max?

Sounds like an opportunity for some one with machine purchasing skills, or somebody who can handle the financial risk/reward.

Don't feel dissapointed if that isn't you. Buying a plane with no damage history it's still a big challenge. Buying an Ovation several hundred miles away from home is fun for some people!

The reward is flying an Ovation. Don't screw things up to save a few percent if that isn't your skill set.

Let us know what you think now...

Best regards,

-a-

Go long bodies!!!

[N33GG]

Yes, it is hard to find a 40-50 year old aircraft without some damage history, but they are out there if you look hard enough. And this is not a 40 year old aircraft. Damage history will be an issue to value, more so and less so depending on the repairs, who repaired it, and records, etc. But it will be an issue, and potentially more so with a newer aircraft. Some buyers will pass on an aircraft with damage history regardless of who did the repairs, thus shrinking the market for sellers. This is an incredible buyer's market. Keep shopping. There are plenty of awesome deals out there. Just remember, if it seems too awesome to be true, there is probably a very good, or bad, reason. Keep shopping.
Just my humble opinion, and 2 cents. FWIW, etc...

Good luck, and welcome to the Awesome world of Mooneys.

[PMcClure]

The reason I walked is because the facts could not be obtained. A seller who did not know them, a owner who could not remember and log books that were not up to date. It needed some work to sort out. Hopefully someone took it over and got the facts up to date so you can make a good assesment. That said, you can't go wrong with an ovation. I have gotten so much use out of mine!

[manu damaschin]

I also bought a gear up landed aircraft, and also had no experience at the time...but I asked an experienced mechanic to have a look, including at the loogs. The repair was properly done and with all the papers.

 

My advise is to ask a professional opinion from a mechanic and go for it. You can invest the rest of the money in avionics:)

 

Good luck!

[John Pleisse]

Not discussed here is the possibility of a tail strike. Having not seen the logs and knowing nothing about this a/c, the suggestion of "multiple" prop strikes is troubling, I'd bet all the tea in China there is an accompanying tail strike in there somewhere. These rarely require many new parts and are "repairable" and many don't file 337's. Look for log entry language of R&R any parts aft of the rear bulkhead. I am not big on damage history airplanes. Find a better date to the prom.

[chrisk]

I bought my Mooney, knowing it had a gear up in 2007.  The 337s were there for the repair (a new belly skin).  It got a new prop and the engine went out for an overhaul.  I would not hesitate to buy a plane that had a gear up and was properly fixed AND DISCLOSED.  It leaves a bad taste when you discover items like a gear up and the owner/seller neglects to tell you.  I saw more than one plane with "no damage history", but the logs indicated a new belly skin and prop around the same time. --A strong indicator the plane had a gear up.

 

Something to keep in mind with a Mooney:  The sheet metal on the fuselage is not structural.  A gear up does not necessarily cause much damage to the airframe, unless someone tries to lower the gear after landing gear up.  The engine and prop are of course going to need attention.

[aaronk25]

http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=148598

Here is an ovation that is gurarenteed to be near perfect. N322RW it was owned by my dentist and the care for it was as awesome as the mechanic was. He traded it for a 2008 acclaim and I don't know who he traded it with but it had all the goodies.

He also had a zero discrepancy policy so everything got fixed. Also was cared for by chuck at dodge center aviation who is very detailed.

PM me if your interested and I bet the previous owner would be more than. Happy to talk with you. It was MN based but I think it was traded in the south so that mitigates the corrosion issue.

[WardHolbrook]

I may be parrotting what others have said, but regardless of why or how the damage occurred, the airplane will lose value. The amount of that loss will be a function of what was damaged, how the repairs were accomplished, how well it was documented in the logs and how long ago the damage occurred. Damage that occurred 30 years ago and was repaired at a factory service center, properly documented, using factory new parts and pieces will have minimal impact. Damage that occurred last month and fixed by Bubba using a hammer and a couple of cans of spray paint and not entered into the logs will lose more value. 

 

But let's face it. If you have the theoretical two otherwise identical airplanes, but one with and the other without a damage history, which one would you want to buy? What would it take to entice you to buy the one with that damage history? The calculation gets muddied when you start considering differences in equipment, airframe and engine times, cosmetic condition, etc but regardless the basic airframe value is going to take a hit of one degree or another.   

[chrisk]

Hi Ward,

I think you hit an important point. A plane with a damage history will take a value hit, and that hit will depend on the type of damage, what was replaced, and the quality of the work. For the plane in the initial post, it had a gear up, and it sounds like it was fixed properly. This is relatively minor damage, and I would not strike the plane from a buy list because of it. --Now the prop strike that didn't have an inspection is an entirely different matter. I would expect a significant discount or pass on the plane.

 

As for muddying the calculation. How do you value a gear up vs a plane that has not been flown for 4 years, or one that sat outside for the last 10 years? What about a plane that had parts replaced due to SB208? It's no damage, but evidence of a corrosion problem. For me, a gear up is a known. It should be easy to inspect. The others are a greater risk and may bring a greater hit to the value.

[aaronk25]

One thing to consider is like others said certainly there is a value hit but if the insurance company resealed the fuel tanks that's 8k so that alone might make up the short fall in price between gear up vs no damage. A new prop would be a good example or on lycomings when the engine got opened up it may have got a new cam and lifters, bearings and seals, like mine did, which means the bottom end can probably go another 2k hours.

I'd take a gear up vs a ndh bird with a midline engine because the inside case should be in good shape. Nothing sux more than buying a bird and finding out the extra money you spent for a 1k hour engine vs tbo engine was a waste because inside the case issues.

If it had gear up 4 years ago and got new case parts but only flew 50 hours, all gets off!

[WardHolbrook]

Hi Ward,

I think you hit an important point. A plane with a damage history will take a value hit, and that hit will depend on the type of damage, what was replaced, and the quality of the work. For the plane in the initial post, it had a gear up, and it sounds like it was fixed properly. This is relatively minor damage, and I would not strike the plane from a buy list because of it. --Now the prop strike that didn't have an inspection is an entirely different matter. I would expect a significant discount or pass on the plane.

 

As for muddying the calculation. How do you value a gear up vs a plane that has not been flown for 4 years, or one that sat outside for the last 10 years? What about a plane that had parts replaced due to SB208? It's no damage, but evidence of a corrosion problem. For me, a gear up is a known. It should be easy to inspect. The others are a greater risk and may bring a greater hit to the value.

Personally, I don't think those things muddy the waters at all, just the normal routine stuff that you have to evaluate any time you're in the market for an airplane. Sellers and owners will always try to minimize and downplay the impact of damage, corrosion repairs, high engine times, inactivity etc. Buyers do the opposite. It's called the art of negotiation. But never forget this... If you've got one of a very few of something for sell and everyone wants one the hit you'll take for a bit of damage will be less. If you have something that there's a lot of and there's a lot of them for sale, you're going going to be able to command top dollar for it if yours has suffered a ding along the way.  

[Robert C.]

Thanks everyone. This is fascinating learning and great reading.

 

Lot's of things to weigh against each other. Philosophically I'm not opposed to buying something that has been repaired. The trick will be to ensure that all is now fixed and in compliance.

 

Robert

[WardHolbrook]

Thanks everyone. This is fascinating learning and great reading.

 

Lot's of things to weigh against each other. Philosophically I'm not opposed to buying something that has been repaired. The trick will be to ensure that all is now fixed and in compliance.

 

Robert

One other thing to consider. It will be the owner of the airplane at the time of the damage that will take the price hit - not the buyer and subsequent owners. If you are satisfied with the quality of the repairs and can negotiate an appropriate price you'll have a nice airplane at a discounted price and even though it will be worth somewhat less than a NDH aircraft, you bought it for less to begin with and it won't hurt so much when you sell it on.     

[fantom]

That is much more than a casual inspection by some A&P, and can be difficult at best given how hard obtaining reliable data is. Not something to be entered into lightly by non mechanically inclined pilots seeking a 'bargain'. Shamefully, too much integrity gets compromised, by some, when selling aircraft. Caveat Emptor!