Matt Ward

I’ve got nothing more to add besides what’s above. A wire was recrimped. It’s a 300 hr XDrive.

So quick update: Aircraft Accessories of OK sells overhauled starting vibrators for $380 and new ones for $450. I bought a new one and it should arrive in a few days. I haven't done the baby jar test yet. I don't have much reason to suspect fuel distribution. When doing my LOP setting via the JPI, the FF from lean to rich is usually within 0.3 GPH according to my ancient fuel flow monitor. The engine runs great at about 8.3GPH and will run as low as mid 7s without too noticeable roughness. My only slight concern with the FF is that sometimes when I try to really finesse the vernier to get from, say, 8.5 to 8.3 gph, leaning will sometime result in a fuel flow reading actually increasing. I chalk that up to my very old Hoskins but it is something I'm conscious of and do monitor. cc @Vance Harral

So I know basically nothing about electronic mags. Would I replace just one (the left?) and leave my existing right mag? Then I'd remove the SOS entirely?

So @Vance Harral was gracious enough to go flying with me tonight to try to diagnose this. My goal was to eliminate 1) starter issues, 2) SOS issues, and/or 3) pilot issues. The starter is turning reasonably fast and we eliminated that. My technique was reasonable although Vance did dial me in. My next step is to try to diagnose the SOS issue as we both think that could be the issue. The Maxwell article describes a relatively straightforward way to observe the spark. If the spark does indeed appear weak, I'll be facing 1) overhaul the SOS, or 2) install the Slickstart.

I think it’s here: https://www.csobeech.com/files/TCMIgnitionVibratorManual.pdf

I took the battery out of the plane and am charging it overnight on my charger just to be sure. It's pretty new so I'll be surprised. Each of the mags just went through a 500 hour inspection. The plugs were checked at the annual (June) but I'm not sure of gaps. When we pulled them they all looked good, at least in terms of oil/burn, for what that's worth. I'm unaware of the age of the mag harness and can't find it in the logbooks anywhere. Nothing in my Savvy data screams mag problem either, but maybe I’m not looking in the right places.

Thanks for the questions, I'll try to address what I can. And I will run a battery capacity check, really surprised if that's the problem. 3) what technique are you using to prime the engine the first time? Following the standard Mooney procedure outlined here http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/HOT STARTS.htm 4) from pump on to starter on... how much time did you wait for fuel to evaporate? On cold start, I typically run the pump 4-5 seconds, enough time to see the fuel pressure gauge move to the middle of the green. Then pump off and try to crank within 3-5 seconds, I'd guess. 5) How ancient is the SOS box? Have you researched the details about how to know when it needs an OH? As far as I know, it's from 1966. I've found the one Don Maxwell article on the subject but haven't done the procedure yet. https://www.donmaxwell.com/shower-of-sparks 6) Do you need an excuse reason to get an electronic mag? No! I just had both mags go through their 500. 9) If the starter works... the relay is Adequate... How old is the starter’s relay (solenoid, contactor, and contractor in Siri speak) I included the dates/age I have above. My question is more basic in that is a starter really that binary: works or doesn't work? Mine does turn the prop, is that good enough? 10) What spark plugs do you have? How old are they? If Champion have you measured their resistance? They were just checked in annual and determined to be good, but I don't have more info than that. No engine data from the JPI leads me to believe I have a spark plug problem. 12) What is draining the battery between flights? How many weeks between flights? I can't imagine anything is draining the battery. When I turn on the master with the engine off, the JPI reports > 12v after sitting for a few days. I fly the plane a lot - 100 hours since April. The plane flies at least once a week, probably an average of 2. 13) how many blades go by during each start attempt? When it starts, it usually starts pretty quickly - I'd guess 15 or fewer. When it doesn't start, I probably am guilty of holding on the starter too long sometimes, maybe 40. 14) how many go by on a successful start attempt? Two, four? I don't see that few, but maybe a great start is 10 or so. 15) what is the X-drive referred to above? It's the starter, referenced here: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/kellyxDrive.php There was a part number change from SRZ-9022 to MZ-622. 16) Looks like the only unknown not covered is the SOS health... and tuning the technique... I agree. If the capacity checks out fine it's may be one of those items, maybe both! I had my A&P look at the SOS and he remarked it was fine but I'm not honestly not sure exactly what he did. 17) SOS audible buzz means it is at least half working... it doesn’t mean much more... I can confirm there is a buzz. If I felt like going to the Slickstart would solve my problem, I'd do that immediately. 18) There is an SOS manual around here somewhere... I think I've seen it, too, but the Maxwell article above may be more helpful for me.

Hey guys, I need some help diagnosing a starting problem in my 1966 M20E (IO-360-A1A). Key components are: -newly overhauled Interav alternator (5 hours of use) -Concorde RG-35AXC (less than 100 hours, 4 months) -X Drive LH Solenoid starter (300 hours, 8 years) -starter contractor (500 hours, 10 years) -original shower of sparks system My problems are recently worse, seeming to coincide with a new alternator after an in-flight alternator failure, and happen with hot, warm, and cold starts. While I am sure my technique is not perfect, my goal with this post is to identify potential hardware issues. Since the new alternator, the JPI is reporting voltage of 13.8 to 14.1 consistently. The starting problem from today went like this, and it's pretty typical: -cold start didn't catch after 2 times -go to flooded start, engine floods, try flooded start procedure several times -may or may not get a cough, may or may not get an attempt at running, never get enough of an attempt for me to take my hand off the key and start doing the air/mixture dance -after trying variants of that flooded procedure 6 to 7 times, with 1 minute or so in between attempts, prop seems to start turning a little slower, coughing becomes less frequent -lineman today brought over his truck, hooked up to my battery, boosted it for about 10 minutes. -left his truck hooked up to my battery while I attempted to crank with the flooded procedure, fired almost instantly So this is what I'm left wondering: -after replacing the alternator, has it been unable to re-charge the "cranking amps" side of the battery, even after 2.5 hours of flying? Is my problem that I need to recharge my battery? -is it possible I destroyed my battery this fast due to a dying alternator? -the starter does turn the prop but I'm suspect of it (for no rational reason other than its age) - is there any way to tell for sure my starter isn't the problem? -the shower of sparks does buzz and my A&P thinks it's ok but I'm keep hearing about Mooney drivers going to the Slick starting system. Does that sound like it would be appropriate for this situation? Thanks for any insight you guys can provide, this is driving my crazy! I want to get to a point where I never have to worry about getting it started hot, warm, or cold.

....to me?

I’m waiting on the pics but I want it!

It sounds like it's new in box, is that right?

I hear this all the time, "what about a great PPI?" Sure, ok, but I think that's putting too much misplaced agency in the hands of the A&P. Hopefully a PPI helps you find the *really big* stuff. Often, I suspect, it also introduces false negatives: planes that are basically ok, but the results of the PPI tend to scare off a novice buyer. PPIs are not regulatory in nature and can be anything from "I'd fly it" to a super detailed inspection that looks like a super detailed annual. Laying that on a first time buyer (for whom the PPI is often most critical) is pretty daunting. My experience is that the practical costs incurred come from actually flying the plane - and that's a good thing! Instruments wear out, consumables get consumed, minor annoyances become major, new things become more attractive than old things, and so on. And many (most) of those are $1k minimum. It's the repetitive $1k spends you have to be prepared for, in my opinion. True, there are horror stories, and as these old planes continue to age they'll only be more, but the mean spends are probably much more modest.

x2. Kerry (politely?) told me not to bring my Mooney to him after I asked a couple questions about the work he was sure he'd have to do before ever seeing my plane. The gist was we have to replace the donuts, we have to replace the alternator, and a few other things. None of that was based on any sort of condition report - just a general view of "before I do your annual, you have to do these things, and they'll cost $4k". A maximalist as Mike Busch would say.

I dunno, to me most IFR discussions are 1) weather, 2) equipment, or 3) configs/technique. Weather has a home in Misc Aviation, Equipment is specific to the model or maybe General Mooney, and Config/Technique is often specific to the model. Seems like a lot of cross-pollination and something that's hard to pin down. I'd probably vote to not have another forum.

No, I should have. The MX was able to feel it and remarked it was “loose”. They detached the wire, recrimped, reinstalled, and turnEd the key to verify the prop bumped. It did. Reinstalled the cowling and off I went. I am replacing the wire with new now. The reason I posted was simply in the event the video is illustrative to someone. It’s pretty disheartening to turn the key and the prop not cooperate!

Sorry to dig up an old topic but maybe this will be helpful to someone. I had a starter issue at KMTJ yesterday that I was afraid would leave me AOG for a while. A video is below. Bottom line was the problem was the jumper wire between the starter and solenoid needed to be recrimped as it had come lose. The guys at Western Skyways fixed me up and had me on my way in less than an hour. IMG_4004.MOV

I fly a 66 M20E. I target low 8's GPH in cruise. At that, I'm a bit LOP with EGTs in the high 1400s and CHTs in the low to mid 300s. Here is a flight from Yellowstone back to Denver from this weekend if you want to look at what that profile is. https://apps.savvyaviation.com/flights/4237292/e57581b5-3aeb-447b-b23c-bac7dff9926d I close my cowl flaps at cruise and don't reopen until landing, assuming there isn't a CHT issue I'm trying to cool down. If there is, I apply a mix of descent, cowl open, mixture richen. I run WOT and full RPM until established in cruise (assuming no noise abatement issues I'm trying to avoid). In cruise, I target about 65% BHP which is about 8.3 GPH, WOT, and 2500 RPM. Like a lot of other Mooney drivers, I subscribe to the "touch and little as I can" school of thought. On climb, I do lean to a target EGT of about 1250. I takeoff in the mid 14s and end up climbing in the 13s or maybe high 12s. I'm based at 5600 ft and typically cruise 10.5 to 12.5, YMMV. Enjoy your E!

Without respect to the route, I posted a thread on here a while back about pragmatic considerations for a long flight in a Mooney - might be valuable if you've not done one before. My longest trip involved two kids in the backseat, so, YMMV. But I think a lot applies re: headsets, water, snacks, duration, etc. While it's not been explicitly stated, don't get set on a schedule. Especially out west you're going to run into weather, fires, closures, and other unforeseen elements. Keep yourself a Plan B and Plan C. Especially as it involves crossing the big rocks, re-routes will be a big part of your day.

Right now I'm eyeing Johnson Creek!

From a couple days ago, passing by the Tetons.

BTW, oxygen isn't going to be your issue. It's not really that high around there and staying at 12.5 and below is not much of a problem. The issue with the Sangre De Cristos is that the aspects are quite steep on the east and west faces. That creates a lot of turbulence as you know. Combine that with the narrow valleys getting in and out and you have a challenge. If your goal is to get into the Alamosa Valley, look west for sure.

Be sure to plan your arrival as it's going to be steep from anyway you choose to arrive. Really study the DP too. If you want to leave on 17 (due to winds) you're going to need a climb rate in the 800 ft/min range to be IFR safe. Beautiful airport but every bit as challenging as TEX or ASE. Raton and Taos are much less involved but may not be what you want.

I’ve got manual cowl flaps in my E. Are you finding the trailing position by feel or something else? I find I am either wide open or fully closed with my cowl flaps and I wonder if I can improve on that.

Thanks for that. Would you say radio noise is predictive of a pending (short time frame) alternator failure?

I hope I didn't inadvertently open a can of worms! All valid points with which I agree. And thanks for the clarification on the 1000 AGL point - that makes much more sense. I tend to find myself bringing gear up very soon and I've been looking for the counterpoint to that in the other thread about the gearups. To me it seems like a trade-off between possibly landing again on the tires vs. getting into a better climb faster. The probability of the former seems quite low to me and probably only useful under a rare set of conditions: immediate catastrophic problem, quick identification and decision, excellent pilotage, etc. I think I'll stick with the positive rate of climb, things sound good, instruments in the green, gear up, pump off, a few seconds delay, flaps up. Not something I want to overthink.