1980Mooney

There are 2 used P2010 TDI 170 HP for sale on Controller, You can buy them for $530,000 to $605,000. I looked at the P2010 TDI POH. Max continuous power is 91% or 155 HP. At 10,000 ft. and 91% power it will do 140 KTAS burning 8.7 GPH. It is a 4 seater with 838 lbs. UL. zero fuel. I can think of a lot of other used planes to buy for that kind of money. And I think that most M20C running lean and low RPM can do 140 KTAS at 9 GHP and do it with way higher UL. Don't worry - I think that your secret is safe......

@mikey757 The standard oil/fuel hoses, if aged and stiff, could add a another $thousand or so. Don’t know what Teflon ones above cost. Some replace the throttle cable depending on age. Also once the engine and engine mount frame is off, it is not uncommon to discover some corrosion on the engine frame. The tubulars are thin and tolerances are extremely small. You may want it powder coated if repaired. Shipping and repair can add up to another couple $thousand. In an earlier discussion someone said that they don’t like to total it all up because it is too depressing ….

“the rest” can be significant. A Mooney owner at Fullerton posted these costs in addition to the cost of the engine overhaul early last year: Freight to/from $ 2,580 Prop Overhaul $ 3,873 Governor Overhaul $ 880 Oil Cooler Overhaul $ 554 Misc Parts $ 1,683 Labor $ 7,345 If they find issues with your exhaust (likely) then add about another $2,500 -3,000 for repair and freight. That adds about another $20,000 on top of just the bare engine overhaul cost. So maybe $60,000 all in….give or take a few thousands. If you go with a Factory OH or Rebuild add the appropriate delta on top.

The wire number codes are clearly labeled and easily identifiable in the wiring diagram that you posted on Wednesday (800330 E1).

I find it interesting that you are considering insuring the hull for about $100K+ more than any other C on the market (about 2.5 times more than the average and up to $125K more than your current value). That must be one heck of an avionics upgrade that you are considering… I hope that you won’t need to spend any money on an overhaul or prop and don’t want new paint or interior You might get a whole lot more for your money by upgrading to someone else’s plane.

Per your question on wiring diagrams: All Electrical Components and Wiring are shown in the Service Manual All the Electrical components are listed at the end of Volume 1 of the Service Manual. The wiring schematics are in Volume 2 of the Service Manual. Below is a link with 2 downloads. Since you have a 1978 model, then you need to look at Schematic 800330 (E1) which is for S/N 24-0378 thru 24-0757 I also have a J converted to a Missile. There are a few things that your A&P has done that make no sense to me. "After the fourth flight with an amorous gear warning horn activation, my A&P installed a manual tachometer and engine manifold pressure gauge that I had had removed during an avionics upgrade two years ago" "A&P and I inspected area around the engine tachometer and manifold pressure (installed just to the left of the CB panel)" The Tach and Engine Manifold Pressure have nothing to do with the Gear Warning System. It is only throttle position. However, the complicated thing is that the throttle micro switch works in conjunction with the main gear lever/switch, and up/down gear limit/position sensing microswitches (in the belly). The micro switch on the throttle is the primary switch. It simply senses a cut out in the throttle shaft. When raising the gear, any intermittent problems with the airspeed switch and gear over-ride switch can also make diagnosis more complicated. Because of the interconnected design of switches and limit switches it can be hard to diagnose. It sounds like by trial & error wiggling, your A&P determined that the throttle micro switch had intermittent problems. Clearly you have multiple intermittent problems. He needs to be checking the continuity of the wiring per the Schematic. Did he check the connections and continuity of the Up/Down limit microswitches in the belly? Also did he adjust the microswitch on the throttle per the Service Manual? Here is a general article on the gear control system by KNR: 201901 Electric gear safety system

No - But I do have a copy of the Overhaul Manual for the TSIO-360 Series which includes the SB. It has all the performance curves for the SB. I just posted it to "Downloads" in case it might be useful.

This has been discussed on Beechtalk for the Bonanza with much disagreement. Considering that the Bonanza was commercially introduced shortly after WWII you would think that there would be no question, Some Bo's only have 2 detents on the flap selector - Up and Full 30 deg. Down. Some have an Approach 15 deg. detent in the middle. Many argue that full flap Vfe is 123 KIAS and Approach (Half - 15 deg) is 153 - 157 KIAS. Here is was the American Bonanza Society wrote a few years ago. "Vfe is found in the Limitations section of the POH. Some POHs and Beech Owner’s Manuals state specifically that this is a maximum full flap extension speed. There is no guidance on the use of partial flaps in handbooks that make this distinction. Most Beech POHs and Owner’s Manuals define Vfe as applicable to any flap extension at all. Bonanzas with APPROACH flap preselect switches (12°-15° extension, depending on model and year) have a higher APPROACH flap extension speed, the same as the gear extension and operating speed (Vle/Vlo; see item 17 below). Full flaps are limited to the published Vfe speed in these airplanes. Vfe is reduced in turbocharged airplanes above 20,000 feet. This speed is also listed in the Limitations section."

This pilot gave an interview on tv after his embarrassing mistakes. Read the Final. His statements during the TV interview are either delusional or outright lies. The Final notes that he was advised that the plane before him went missed because ceilings were down to 200 ft. The Final noted that he could not fly to the fix which he was assigned. Then he could not follow ATC instructions for headings. He claimed that he misprogrammed his GNS430 (probably the only thing he said that was accurate). However, during FAA/NTSB interview he could not explain how to program or use the 430 - especially the Vertical guidance or glide slope. He said that he used a hand held VFR GPS only “to avoid complex keystrokes “. He had previously crashed a plane in 1992 (with his family who survived) in which the NTSB cited his poor inflight decisions. https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/106368/pdf https://www.dcnewsnow.com/news/local-news/maryland/exclusive-pilot-in-montgomery-county-crash-talks-about-flight-prior-crash-30-years-earlier/amp/ https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/301805

@Marc B here is a Mooney currently on the TMHCC site that you can bid on. It’s that knucklehead J that crash landed that high voltage transmission tower in Maryland. https://www.tmhcc.com/-/media/project/tokio-marine/shared/aircraft-salvage/n201rf-salvage.pdf https://www.tmhcc.com/en-us/contact-us/underwriting-teams/aviation-group/avemco/aircraft-salvage#!/list https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/280966/

I think you mean that Mooney’s only have “fairly low FULL (33 degrees) flap speed”. Mooney has never published a max speed limit (extension or retraction) in any POH for half or take-off flaps (15 degrees). VFE (Full 33 degrees) for an Acclaim is 110 KIAS and 115 KIAS for an M20J. I wonder if anyone has seen notes for half/take off/15 degree flaps from test pilots. But I can attest from 25 years of use, that the upper limit for half flaps is much, much higher.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/469542

You should post this in Vintage. This is an ongoing saga with the Dukes actuator. Although the ITT actuator is a direct substitute for the Dukes, I assume the internal design and gear set is different - but could be wrong

Yup - first place to look for answers to obscure Mooney questions like “when he (Lowen) sold the biz”…..

@Mooney810 My J model has a nice dent in the flap right where the "No Step" is located. It was that way 25+ years ago when I bought it. It has been stepped on accidentally in the same place many times in the 25 following years - and yes once or twice by me when tired or entering/exiting in pitch darkness. And the flaps have always worked just fine.

Federal Parks and Monuments with “user fees” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fee_areas_in_the_United_States_National_Park_System#List I think 92 are listed above. You don’t pay - then you don’t enter. Doesn’t matter that Federal funds paid for it. Airport landing fees and ramp fees are perfectly legal.

Hmmmm. "private enterprise both promoting and abbetting aggressive expansion of these fees" That sounds like the mantra of the incoming DOGE cabal. The Reason Foundation and Project 2025 have pushed expansion of user fees to completely user fund the FAA and to privatize ATC. "the Reason Foundation has written an open letter to the incoming leaders of the Department of Government Efficiency to make air traffic control a "user-funded utility." Think Tank Urges DOGE To Make ATC 'User-Funded' - AVweb Open letter on air traffic control to DOGE’s Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy Aviation International News Letters to President-elect Trump debate funding ATC with user fees The use of ADSB data outside flight safety or managing traffic is rather odd… It is probably "music to Musk's/Ramaswamy's ears". Perfectly automated. Easy Peasy.... And for those that think GA pilots pay their "fair" share of FAA and ATC costs through AVGAS fuel tax - it is laughable. The commercial operators have complained that they are subsidizing GA. That measly $38 million is supposed to cover all the thousands of small General Aviation airport FAA grants for capital improvements and ATC along with FAA overhead. Get ready for big increases in costs. And yes it is a slippery slope. The DOGE boys probably already have their fav Private Equity oligarchs lined up to buy the ATC.... @takair expressed a concern about PE buying up airports and screwing us. PE would much prefer to buy the technology at the top - fewer people, no liability. Owning an airport is a PITA fraught with liability. And PE owners would find ways to cut cost - like outsource ATC centers to somewhere like India. After all why do they need to be in the US?!! History of the User Fee Fight in the United States - AOPA

Not sure where you are coming from saying "for a FBO company to come in and then claim that part as theirs to charge a fee is wrong". The FBO is just doing it as an agent of the Owner of the airport (City, County or private) under contract. The contract may stipulate that the FBO gets a service fee. If you have an issue with the practice, take it up with the Airport Owner - they are making the decisions. And as far as charging to enter or use a publicly owned asset, how is this any different from a City charging to enter and park in a City owned parking garage? (and they probably hire a third party to collect the fees as an agent to the City). Same as the State charging a fee to enter a State Park. And charge more if you stay overnight. A perfect example is a City or County funded and owned sports stadium. Of course the City or County is going to charge you to park and enter. Toll fees on public bridges? - common and most going cashless with license plate reading technology. And the road in front of your property?...if the Owner (City or County and yes paid by taxes) wanted to turn that into a Toll Road, they could hire you to collect the fee as their Agent. Yes you will get a commission on the collections to cover your service costs. I think you will see more user fees on everything as Government entities struggle to cover the costs of operating, maintaining and replacing assets and infrastructure. Most Cities/Counties have balanced their Annual Budgets by deferring needed spending/maintenance on assets and infrastructure. It can't go on forever.

@Shiroyuki Take a look at this post. It has pictures of the Dukes actuator which was also manufactured by ITT (interchangable). There is an exploded diagram of the worm gear and gear set. There is also a picture of the Eaton actuator used in 1978 and on for comparison. The Eaton was also manufactured under the names of Eaton and also Avionics Products Company, CONDEC, Vickers (all the same actuator - just predecessor companies acquired by Eaton). This is the actuator with the "no-back spring". There was also an actuator shown made by Plessey which was interchangeable with the Eaton. Plessey is no longer supported and should be avoided. .

Because back on Sept. 24 Mathew P posted in the '20 or 40' topic - "From what I understand, Mooney Engineers designed the gearing to be used in the actuators and therefore the gears (drawings) are Mooney proprietary that are produced by a 3rd party vendor, which is still in business and CAN fabricate the gears but Mooney REFUSES to take/place an order for us."

Soaring America Corp is owned by Meijing. It is not owned by "Soaring Aviation". No doubt that Meijing is having a hard time in real estate. That is likely why they stopped putting money into Mooney at the end of 2019. When you say "what will happen to Soaring America Corp?". Well for the meantime - probably nothing. It appears that with their US Financial LLC deal, Soaring America Corp does not have to put any money into Mooney. They can just sit there and monitor. A couple of years ago, Jonny and US Financial were shopping the company. Most likely they told Soaring America/Meijing that they could flip the company and make everyone money. Well it didn't work out and now US Financial is struggling to make payroll (like has happened so many times in the history of Mooney Corp.). Taking on any new liability likely does not work for Mooney. And Meijing/Soaring likely are in a position to "just say no" to Jonny. BTW - good intel on the Meijing facility and the fact that they only reassembled to planes that were shipped from Texas.

The problem is that you are looking at Chinese legal entities and Chinese subsidiaries of Meijing in China. Soaring America Corporation is a US legal entity of the parent Meijing Group. (It is not "Soaring Aviation") It is active and in good standing. It owns 20% of Mooney International Corporation and may have secured much more of Mooney. From the California Secretary of State today. That is the same source as the Registration Documents above. https://bizfileonline.sos.ca.gov/search/business

Not exactly right. In October 2013, Mooney Aviation Company was bought by Soaring America Corporation, Chino, CA, a US subsidiary of China’s Zhengzhou-based Meijing Group (which is a real estate and import/export company.) The Mooney company was renamed "Mooney International Corporation" This was well documented in Mooney Flyer November 2013 on page 7 https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2013-NovTMF.pdf http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2013-10/17/content_17040096.htm https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_ca/3521271a In September 2020, after considerable cash investment in Mooney only to cease operations in 2019, Meijing Group sold 80% of Mooney International Corporation to "U.S. Financial LLC, WY" Soaring America (Meijing Group) retained 20% of Mooney and retained the right to manufacture Mooneys in China and Africa. This is well documented in the October, 2020 Mooney Flyer on page 3 and in the Aviation Week "Sounding Board: Five Minutes With Mooney International CEO Jonny Pollack". Present Position Sounding Board: Five Minutes With Mooney International CEO Jonny Pollack | Aviation Week Network I don't think anyone would argue that Meijing poured a lot of cash into Mooney. I suspect that Meijing put it on the Mooney financial books as loans....and loans that are secured by assets of Mooney like the Type Certificates, designs, engineering data, Intellectual Property as well as factory assets. That is what any smart financial advisor or attorney would recommend. If any of you followed the bankruptcy of Vans Aircraft you can see the obvious parallel. Founder Van Grunsven (and family) had supposedly sold the company to the Employees. But the company needed cash loans which Van Grunsven provided. However, he secured all the valuable assets, engineering data, designs, certificates, manufacturing assets and building to those loans. When Vans filed Bankruptcy, he stood at the head of the line for claims and the entire company came back to him like a big rubber band or yoyo. Upon exit of bankruptcy, the Van Grunsven family now owns 100% of Vans Aircraft. The employees' "investment" got hosed. Everyone wonders why Jonny can do a deal with Lasar on the Eaton "no back spring" but can't do anything with the Dukes actuator w/Mooney designed gears. It is likely because he cannot trade away the "Dukes IP" because it is secured by loans from Meijing and he cannot do anything without their approval. The "no back spring" was likely an Eaton design that they would rather not make any longer. Hence they were willing to work with Jonny. But when it comes doing anything that requires a concession by Meijing I bet his hands are tied. Additionally, Likely Jonny is desperate to avoid bankruptcy because Meijing will get all the secured assets. The factory building (leased from the Kerrville Airport Authority which is co-owned by the City and County) will go back to the Airport Authority. U.S. Financial will likely lose everything. Soaring America Corporation - the US subsidiary of Meijing - which owns 20% of Mooney is alive and well and still actively exists. Soaring America Corporation (A California Corporation) shows its principal corporate address (that is Soaring America's corporate address - not it's investment or subsidiary address) as 165 AL MOONEY ROAD NORTH KERRVILLE, TX 78028.. Meijing Group may have unwisely invested in Mooney but I doubt that they are stupid..

This is for a Dukes landing gear actuator. They were last used in the first year of the M20J - 1977 (basically a carryover of much of the 1976 M20F until the engineering was finished and parts inventory was used up). It has nothing to do with your plane which has an Eaton landing gear actuator. AD 75-23-04: SB M20-190 | Mysite

So no - that is wrong. - Actually the price is stable @IvanP $2,178 in Aug. 2024 was only for shock discs. @exM20K Oct. 2024 parts price of $3,300 included shock discs and spacer assemblies, which if they came from Mooney, were expensive. Aircraft Spruce has them ( Lord Landing Gear Shock Disk J-11968-14) in stock for $178 each. $178 x 11 = $1,958 (ship free on large orders) https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/lord-m20-mooney.php?clickkey=4860169