1980Mooney

A lot of drift here. Not sure what it has to do with the OP’s topic….. I thought my finger slipped into the Avionics/Panel Discussion section.

I have a hard time believing that. 2,500 ft, badly leaned or not, gear down or up, flaps takeoff, full or not, a Mooney with 2 adults on board will climb. Ham fisted Mooney owners take off all the time, poorly leaned - and I wager many at 5,000 DA. If Mooney's were that sensitive they would be falling out of the sky every day in the mountain west, especially in the summer. They would be labeled a "death trap". As they say "It just ain't so"....

Agreed. 2,500 ft elevation and 5,000 ft DA should not be a problem. I would fly my J (pre Missile conversion) out of Albuquerque at 5,355 ft elevation all the time - many times at max gross with seats filled. It has a long runways but still a non event. Same with Santa Fe. You just focus on a nice steady climb.

Per Adam’s Report- no wind Weather: METAR KMAN 272335Z AUTO 00000KT 9SM CLR 32/11 A2993 RMK A01 METAR KMAN 272355Z AUTO 00000KT 9SM CLR 32/11 A2993 RMK A01

When there is no Basic Med required, no third part scrutiny, no reason to do a structured self evaluation/assessment, it becomes easy to convince oneself that "I am good enough to fly" in spite of the facts. I suspect that there are many Mooney families here that have "taken the keys away from Grandpa" even though he was convinced in his mind that he was still able to drive a car safely. It's a slippery slope....

Looks like "Kathryn's Report" as become "Adam's Report" Interesting Adam's Report: Mooney M20J, N5764H, fatal accident occurred on July 27, 2025, near Nampa Municipal Airport (MAN/KMAN), Nampa, Idaho

I think I hit a nerve. I must be on to something. It's a slippery slope.....

True. Lack of experience could cause indecision until it is too late. With enough experience in one's own plane - you may sense something is not right - feel, sound, response. Elevation at Nampa is 2,537 ft. Temp was 88 F at the time. I don't know the baro. This was a 5,000 ft runway. Still plenty of runway to take off or put it down if not right. And looking at the map and charts there appears to be about an additional 600 ft overrun before hitting the perimeter fence. Hindsight is perfect. The same thing killed McSpadden.

Very sad indeed. The LLC owner is a 43 year old in Eagle, Idaho. He got his Private on 6/28/2024. He purchased the 1984 M20J fairly recently - it was registered in his LLC on February 28, 2024 when he lived in Fresno, CA. The Mooney, which was sold in Florida, arrived in Fresno on April 2, 2024. https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a7679f&lat=34.836&lon=-118.303&zoom=7.4&showTrace=2024-04-02&trackLabels&timestamp=1753659666 This appears to be the ad at the time of sale N5764H | 1984 MOONEY M20J 201 on Aircraft.com On August 5, 2024 he relocated it to Nampa, Idaho https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a7679f&lat=40.863&lon=-118.532&zoom=7.2&showTrace=2024-08-05&trackLabels&timestamp=1753659666 The family has posted that the pilot, his wife and young child perished in the crash. Woman originally from Kingsburg killed in Idaho plane crash with husband and baby The Coroner reports that the boy was 23 months old. Coroner IDs 23-month-old boy as Idaho plane crash victim | Idaho Statesman The Mooney never got above 69 knots on the 5,000 ft. runway at Nampa. He got to about 325 ft AGL in the turn back before stalling. https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a7679f&lat=43.586&lon=-116.538&zoom=17.7&showTrace=2025-07-27&trackLabels&timestamp=1753659661 Tragic. Something to think about every time you take off with your family. I didn't used to think about it much when the family was young. Now, older and family grown, I think about a lot more. Flying is not as fun as it used to be.

Perhaps you are saying that rules were only "keeping the honest, honest". So let's get rid of "over zealous bureaucratic" rules. The pilot was a retired dentist who should be more attuned to health issues and drugs than the average Joe. MOSIAC pilot heath is completely self-policing with no pretense of really any oversight of rules. It's a slippery slope.

I think aerochet just made my point. "super excited that this new rule gives me a path to continue flying when I get to the point I can no longer pass BasicMed." I doubt that you will see many SEP ads anymore that say "LOST MEDICAL - NEED TO SELL". Owner pilots will just whip out their driver's license and keep flying. The majority won't do anything intentionally nefarious (of course some will) but it is easy to lull yourself into believing "I'm OK, I am not that bad, I feel fine". And be brutally honest - how many here would bother to get an annual physical or even visit the doctor if it were not required by insurance or work? Occasional cold or flu? - just go to a "Doc In The Box" or now "tele visit". And DL pilots will be honest in self-assessment- "What I don't know, can't hurt me" - "Don't ask....no reason/nothing to tell" I think, at least for older pilots, there will be less attention to medical condition simply there will be less focus or requirement. And more likely to keep flying when I should probably stop. Myself included. Like I said, it's a slippery slope. Sometimes you need a third party to tell you "no". And who will take the "airplane keys" away from grandpa? He just needs his easy to get drivers license out and he is good to go. Did anyone see the NTSB report on the June 14, 2023 fatal crash of Mooney Ovation N1025C in Wisconsin that took the lives of the 73 year old pilot and his 8 year old grandson? Spatial disorientation They found delta-8-THC., codeine, gabapentin and possible ethanol use. Tests showed morphine and hydrocodone but they could have been metabolites of codeine However he was being treated for high blood pressure, arthritis, back pain, insomnia, obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) and low testosterone He had extensive systemic steroid use for back pain and was prescribed muscle relaxants and narcotics and his OSA was being treated with a CPAP device (although they are not sure if he was using it) A codeine prescription is a disqualifier Use of gabapentin may cause drowsiness, dizziness, blurred vision, and general central nervous system (CNS) depression. Gabapentin use with codeine can have even higher risk of central nervous system depression.

The people that work in these shops are human. Humans are prone to making mistakes. Dealing with a large volume of the same type engine can build greater understanding/knowledge, develop consistent processes and better maintain a depth of well-trained personnel in order to maintain consistency while dealing with vacations, sick days, and turn-over. A "local engine builder" might be dealing with a different engine each rebuild It can be like starting over/relearning all the quirks with that engine (and there are so many variations even in the same engine - some dictated by the airframe manufacturer). The Factory or a "Big Name Shop" will likely have focused teams working on the same type engine over and over Repetition is not a guarantee for quality (it can have its own issues) but it reduces the effect of "forgetting what you know/have learned" during periods of inactivity with that particular engine It is the same reason we need activity and repetition to stay "proficient" flying. Case in point - Rocket Engineering did one of the last if not the last Missile conversion on my plane. The mechanics told me it had been about 6 months since they did the most recent "piston" conversion, and they had been busy with JetProp DLX conversions of Malibu's. They literally forgot how to properly plumb up the Continental fuel injection. It is lucky that we didn't get killed flying it. I was standing there when they had the local Continental Rep come out and diagnose their FUBAR and perform a proper SID-97 adjustment of the fuel system. Roll the dice.

9 grand for what?

The more you do, the more you will find to do. So this overhead console project has turned into the entire interior project. Since you are pulling the interior Inspect all the tubulars for corrosion and need of paint Inspect the spar for corrosion Per Skip, @PT20J you should untape the sheet aluminum inspection ports "Remove the rear seat. I believe that the factory used duct tape. Some people use aluminum tape, but it is hard to remove aluminum tape as it tends to tear into little pieces, the adhesive being stronger than the tape. 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner will loosen the adhesive. The wing roots are also duct taped closed behind the interior trim panels and the dust boots on the landing gear retract tubes in the wheel wells are another source of air leaks. Also, the door seal along the bottom often leaks air if it is old and compressed. If you are going to remove the rear seat and retape the inspection covers, I'd take the time to remove them and inspect the area between the front and rear spars for corrosion. Skip" You may want to do something with the insulation after inspection. If your plane has undergone avionics upgrades they may have abandoned wire in place which you can remove. Check for any fuel seepage from the pickup or sender Check your logs to see when your fuel lines were last replaced - if old this is the time to do it. Etc, Etc......

Can you site your source of data that shows BasicMed pilots have lower accident rates? - and is that rate based upon accidents per hour flown? And you point out that your BasicMed makes you actually think about your health and visit a doctor. The new Sport Pilot does not require that. It is a slippery slope. That is my point.

A licensed pilot with declining health or growing addictions that is in denial or just doesn't care yet still insists on flying. Someone who doesn't care about rules. The 717 page FAA MOSIAC Final Rules document is confusing and hard to digest because it only lists all the modifications to FAR. On page 677 it inserted the following into § 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration. (c) 2 (4) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate an aircraft in a safe manner. It makes the Sport Pilot solely and completely responsible to self-police their health conditions prior to flight. It is complete "Don't ask - Don't tell". No Medical, no Basic - just a driver's license. Does anyone here seriously believe that Sport Pilots with only a driver's license and no Medical or Basic will stay below 10,000 ft, not take 2 or 3 passengers up or not fly at night?..... Or a pilot that doesn't give a crap about their health (or doesn't want to believe their doctor)...(or thinks that they have their addiction(s) under control) ?... Seriously? No-one is going to be policing who is PIC on flights at night or that stray above 10,000 ft. And do you really think that there will be ramp checks upon landing to count the number of passengers?! For those that want to flaunt the rules, it will be a real free-for-all. @Parker_Woodruff - where do the insurance companies stand on this?... Anyone - Tell me what I am missing....tell me what I have wrong in my interpretation of the new MOSAIC rules for pilots?

To survive the brutal downturn in demand for engines starting in the late 80's, Lycoming aggressively outsourced manufacturing of many critical parts and reduced capacity. The Lycoming plant became more of an engine assembler and with less and less competitive advantage from independent engine shops. Outsourcing, while cutting cost, sacrificed quality control. The crankshaft debacle of the late 90's/early 2000's was due to botched heat treating by a vendor. As @PT20J noted, Lycoming brought manufacturing of jugs back in house just before Covid. Piston manufacturing also returned. These are huge "additions" to manufacturing at Williamsport and very disruptive. Covid brought more disruption. Per Skip in Sept. 2022: "I just got back from a tour of the Lycoming factory. They have invested heavily to bring more work in house for better control over quality and cost. About all they don’t do now is casting and forging. The factory floor is an interesting mix of very modern highly automated machining equipment, mid-20th century machine tools, and 19th century techniques (I saw two workers mating case halves with a plastic mallet). Lycoming is currently as much as a year behind on cylinder kits depending on the model. This is due to bringing head manufacturing in house just before Covid hit, which caused a gap in production, while simultaneously demand increased greatly beyond forecast. Apparently, a lot of folks decided to put money into airplanes during Covid — especially homebuilders. Vans went from a distant 3rd to Lycoming’s biggest customer (by “ many millions of dollars”). They are currently running 6 automated CNC lines that can machine heads from raw castings in about 45 minutes for a parallel valve head, and an hour for angled valve heads. Machines are running 24/7. Lycoming has about 520 employees and is shipping about 12 engines per day. Lycoming is still shipping new dual mag engines. They get the mags from Kelly. Apparently Partenavia uses them in some model. And, for Clarence @M20Doc, they rebuild or overhaul about two IO-720s per year. Skip"

Skip @PT20J attended a Lycoming Factory Engine class. He previously commented on MS that: ”For instance, crankshaft journal dimensions can be new, -.003, -.006, -.010. A rebuilt crankshaft must be -.006 or better whereas an overhauled crankshaft might be machined down to -.010. But, I’m told that this very rarely happens because mostparts retained from used engines are in pretty good shapeor they get scrapped.” Regarding your bad cylinder history with a factory rebuilt BMW burning oil, I think Lycoming uses new cylinder assemblies which includes new piston, rings, valves, guides, springs etc in Factory Rebuilt engines. Per Skip: “When I took the factory class, Lycoming said the rebuilts are done to new limits and have the same warranty as a new engine. There are a lot of new parts: Cylinders, pistons, camshaft, lifters, gears. They try to reuse cases, and crankshafts, probably con rods.”. As @jetdriven pointed out, even Lycoming Factory Overhauls get new cylinder assemblies. This is why a Lycoming Factory Overhaul costs more than a field overhaul.

@Tmack201 Only time you need to worry about it is when you are landing in the Twilight Zone....

Spot on. Maybe @Parker_Woodruff can provide a perspective from the insurance companies. So apparently any Sport Pilot with any serious or debilitating medical ailment, history of drug abuse, alcoholism, etc. just needs to show a driver's license and convince a CFI to sign off on the complex and high-performance endorsement in order to fly any Mooney up through an F model. I am not aware of any DMV rigidly revoking driver's licenses unless there has been a long history of multiple infractions, usually involving serious accidents/deaths, and even then you hear about people getting their license back. Do CFI's now face greater liability for signing off on people that they suspect may be of poor health or drug/alcohol abusers? There is a clause in MOSAIC that says "(4) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate an aircraft in a safe manner. " This gives new meaning to "Don't Ask - Don't Tell"...... And from a passenger perspective in the event of an injury due to pilot incapacitation, does this lessen any claim that they may have? A Sport Pilot is not required to have a medical of any kind, not required to disclose anything related to health or drug/alcohol influence and no-one checks it. I can't even find a statement that a Sport Pilot should not fly if in poor health or under the influence of anything.

You can spend a ton on upgrading avionics, especially if you want a new autopilot too. The more you look, the more you will want. Feature-creep will set in. If for some reason you wind up selling the plane after a major avionics upgrade, plan on losing about 50% of what you invested in the avionics. Rather than giving your panel and autopilot a major makeover, you are better off buying a plane with enough seats and one that already has the modern avionics that you need/desire. The seller that installed the avionics has already taken the haircut on price. And if you have to sell the next plane with the "modern" avionics already installed, you are in a better position to recoup your investment.

Thread drift.....I never understood why Piper decided back in 2009 to cease production of the Saratoga line. It's not like they were hard-up for cash/liquidity or going out of business (e.g. Mooney). Even more thread drift....I found the OP's opening comment interesting. "1966 Mooney M20E Super-21 that I purchased a few years back from Jimmy at GMAX. ....The plane came with some big squawks,"

Except that your statement is neither true nor accurate. The Federal government pays ZERO, ZILCH, NADA of the operating expenses of airports - the stuff that keeps the airport lighting on, the fuel farm/tanks/trucks/pumps working, the line crew working, the runway cleared after weather, the contract tower workers working, tarmac upkeep, painting and repair etc. A good example is Sugar Land Airport, the busiest GA airport on the west side of Houston - owned by the City. They have a contract tower. The audited 2023 financials show it had Revenue of $23.501 million and Operating Expenses of $23.844 million resulting in a LOSS of $(342K). NONE OF THE OPERATING REVENUE COMES FROM FEDERAL SOURCES OR FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS. And that is before paying Interest due of $494K on Sugar Land City Bonds paying for Airport Improvements. (these are not Federal funds for capex). The airport has incurred an Operating Loss in 3 out of the last 4 years. Local property and sales taxpayers, virtually none of which own planes, operate or fly out of KSGR, have to pay that loss.

That sounds right for a fully acrobatic Decathlon with inverted oil system. I was commenting in general and non-aerobat Mooney in particular. The moment I drop anything in my Mooney while flying, it is generally gone until landing or if a passenger can find it....

This economic justification sounds great if you are operating off gravel runways and tearing the hell out of your prop every take-off. But in reality, how many owners are having to scrap their metal prop blades frequently/regularly? Most of us operate off of paved runways in decent condition. I suspect that if you are scrapping blades frequently, it is more because of ham handed and overzealous A&P's that are unnecessarily grinding your prop down every year than the occasional fubar of a rock chip dressing/repair.