marcusku

Earlier this year I was at an engine shop that had an IO360 sump laying around so for fun we poured 6 quarts of liquid to see what level that equated to. Turns out 6 quarts brings you to very close to the top of the sump. Of course while the engine is running not all the oil is in the sump but not sure how level the engine sits while in cruise? I noticed that the pressure fluctuations are first noticeable when descending which supports the theory since the engine would be tipped more forward during a decent lowering the level of oil in the sump at the back of the engine where that joint would be. At any rate I'm all but concluding this is where my problem is. Since it would be quite costly to replace that gasket, my short term solution is simply to keep plenty of oil it.

Some good things to check. Has anyone seen a problem with the electric pump causing some pressure fluctuations? It's seem strange that immediately after shutting off the electric pump the pressure will quickly fall then slowly build back up with the engine pump running.

I did do some searching first but haven't come up with the answer. About a year ago I was getting some fluctuating pressure readings and generally the pressure was showing toward the bottom of the green. The engine driven pump was replaced and the result was higher and more stable fuel pressures. After replacing, every so often shortly after start up, fuel pressure will be slow to build. When this happens it often also seems to take more cranking to start the engine and when hitting the boost pump prior to start up pressure builds more slowly and doesn't get as high. . If I hit the boost pump the pressure goes up to the middle of the green which is typical but then when I let go of the pump the pressure goes back down. It's also happened on take off after shutting off the electric pump, pressure drops quickly but slowly comes back up. On my last flight the pressure was reading close to the middle of the green and as an experiment I hit the boost pump, this brought up the pressure slightly as you'd expect but as soon as I turned it off the pressure quickly fell to the red line then slowly built back up to the middle. Is it possible something weird is going on with the boost pump? I tend to think it's not an indication error. Any clues?

This is tough to read, really feel for him and what he must have went through. Also discouraging to hear about an engine failure in a brand new airplane. Although I'll never be able to afford one, part of the attraction of a new airplane is that it's presumably more reliable. I guess that's not necessarily the case. Wish the best for Mark and his family.

It did get sold a year ago. (to me)

My bother lives in Toronto and I've contemplated flying in here as well. How long does it take to get a restricted radiotelephone operator permit? Is talking to Canadian ATC any different than the US?

Mine went down but I'm probably not a good comparison since I started the year with 0 Mooney hours.

Another observation today, prior to the flight I added oil to bring it back up to approximately 6 qts. During the flight I saw a constant 79 psi. Then at the end of the flight, on the way down I hit some turbulence and shortly there after noticed the gauge fluctuating, then looked at the JPI and it was showing between 70-75 psi. Once I was bouncing around less it seemed to stabilize at about 75 psi. Landed and checked the oil about 7 hours later and found the level to be ~5.75 quarts. For the way home I added another quart and the pressure was constant. Before I left I attempted to line up the dipstick along side the case but it's really tough to tell where the joint between the sump and the accessory case line up relative to the dipstick. Can't confirm but it seems as though the issue is with the joint in question, just seems weird that it would only be leaking from the inside only. The sump bolts do look tricky to get at if one wanted check the torque. To remove the sump to replace the gasket looks like a lot of work--time, aka $$.

I was originally picturing the same thing too. If you do a search on IO-360 oil sump and accessory case you can get a better visual on how it's put together. There are some drawings in this PDF that help too: http://www.rvplane.com/pdf/XP360_OverhaulManual.pdf So is it safe to say that what myself and a few others are experiencing is abnormal? Are there others who have run have run 5 qts who see the same pressure as at 7 qts?

This document also points to this as a possible problem. http://www.rvplane.com/pdf/XP360_OverhaulManual.pdf For that to make sense with my symptoms the leak would have to be on the inside of the engine only though. If it were leaking on the outside I would think it would draw some air all the time and the level wouldn't matter. Looks like there are only two joints between the sump and the pump, as described above and between the pump and the accessory case.

Makes sense to start with that in your case. In my case, I have good pressure when the oil is high so I wouldn't think it would change anything for me.

I wondered if oil not getting to the sump fast enough could be a possibility too. The engine has about 1200 hrs SMOH, total time ~3200 hrs? It varies with season, time when it works our well but I change every 30-50 hrs-more often in winter. I put on 140 hrs or so the past year so it's been changed at least 3 times in the past year.

Makes sense. Where's a good spot to obtain model specific service manuals? Does the factory manual cover the whole aircraft including the engine or are there separate various manuals? I realize there's not a lot I can touch but I like to know how things are put together.

You wouldn't think the relief valve would care how much oil is in the sump but maybe? Alternatively, is it possible return oil is getting restricted somewhere and not draining back to the sump as quickly as it should? That would mean there are a couple quarts of oil sitting somewhere in the engine where it isn't supposed to.

If indeed I'm sucking some air already at 6 quarts, it seems unlikely that it would develop any pressure at 4 quarts much less 2. I did see in the engine owner's manual that the minimum oil was 2 quarts.

I noticed early on after getting the airplane that the oil pressure read lower at various times. At first I suspected the gauge but then noticed that it only happened when the oil level was lower. As long as it was over 6 qts the gauge showed the middle of the green while in cruise at 2400 rpm. When the level gets closer to 5.5 qts it shows at the line between yellow and green and also will flutter a bit at times. I added an oil pressure sensor to the JPI to get some actual numbers and found if I have over 6 qts, I get a reasonably consistent 78 psi. When I get closer to 5.5 qts it goes down to 65-70 psi and also the pressure will jump around 2 psi or so. With the pressure being less and jumping around a bit I've been nervous to run it any lower to see what happens. It doesn't make any sense to me why pressure would change at all with the level of oil in the sump. To me at a given rpm & oil temp, the pressure should always be the same unless the pump was drawing in some air. In theory it should get the same pressure even if you only had 2-3 quarts--as long as the pump wasn't taking in any air? Anyone else observe this or have some ideas?

Along with an engine cover, Bruce's sells insulated covers for the prop and spinner. How much difference does that make?

Another one to add please. We need one person from Wisconsin!

When I landed I should've been around 2760 lbs. The GW increase to 2,900 included revised pages of the POH so I have both the original and modified. I was looking in the "normal procedures" section under "landing", the original says 71 and revised 80. For some reason it also changes the gear operating speeds. They go back down to 132 from 140 and also once down says the max speed stays at 132 instead of 160. Not sure why those numbers would change.

Appreciate all the responses! The flight went well and the airplane performed better than I would have expected. I did have a little too much elevator trim in during take off as the stall warning chirped when the mains left the ground. I immediately relaxed the yoke and kept it in ground affect until I picked up more speed. With the CG more aft than what I'm used to, it takes less trim and back pressure to take off. For landing I crossed the threshold at about 75 knots instead of 70 and that seemed about right.

I have a 87' 205 with the weight increase to 2,900 lbs. Planning a trip where I'll be close to or at 2,900. How does a J perform at that weight? Any considerations? Of course I'll need to make sure my CG is acceptable. The manual says approach speeds should be 80 knots instead of 71. According to the book the stall speed only changes by 2 knots so this seemed like a big jump to me. Thanks in advance!

My door popped open once on take off too and remarkably survived, I'm guessing because I forgot to latch it. Since then I lock it before I take off. For me the added benefit is it forces me to remove the keys from the ignition before I move the airplane because I can't get to the tow bar without unlocking the baggage compartment. I then leave the keys on the hat rack until just before I get into the airplane to depart. I've forgotten to move the ignition switch to "off" position a few times--don't want to be moving the prop in the "both" position!

I've only been flying a Mooney for about 8 months and it's certainly more difficult for me to land than previous (C-152, C-72, PA-28) and though I have about 120 hours on the Mooney I still wouldn't call myself "good at landing". Too me it's less forgiving than other planes I've flown. I believe my main mistakes are flaring too high and too fast. Lately I've been doing better to get closer to 70 knots over the fence and that seems to be helping. One thing I have gotten better at are go-arounds! Never had to do one until the Mooney though once or twice I should have.

Terrible......and scary. Is this an unusual number for one year?? I sure hope it is. We all hope we will learn and do better but it's hard to be prepared for everything.

That's where my head is at. Saving a few bucks flying into somewhere I'm not comfortable with isn't worth while to me. One question still out there from earlier that I'm still confused: "I thought when the winds aloft are perpendicular to the range, there are greater chances of mountain waves and turbulence--in which case winds from the NW or SE?"