Bob - S50

If you do Angel Flight, get a Phillips 66.

It probably won't give you everything you want, but check the experimental documents for installation info.

To my eye that one is pretty but a little over priced. Old avionics, 25 hours/year on the engine. Very low useful load (908). Expensive to maintain KFC200.

I'll say the same thing I said in that thread. I would not expect Garmin to spend the time and money to do some other manufacturer's job. If those manufacturers want their equipment to work with Garmin autopilots then they can do the work. TT had to work with other navigators because TT doesn't make navigators. Now that TT is BK, maybe they won't care if it works with others (big mistake since though since nobody buys the BK navigators). STEC makes AP's but not navigators. Dynon doesn't make navigators. Garmin will play just fine with others as long as the others are willing to ensure compatibility. If you think Garmin tries to exclude others, just look at the interface compatibility list for the GI275. The other manufacturers didn't do that for Garmin. Garmin took the time to ensure all those parts worked.

Mostly nice. My biggest negative is the useful load of 930 lbs. That can be improved by replacing old stuff with new stuff if/when you have the money. 930 lbs might be OK for the way you plan to use it. Only you know. If you are like most of us, and don't plan to spend over 3 hours in cruise, you can get by with a bit over 40 gallons (240 lbs). If it really has the wing gauges, that would not be too hard to do. That would leave 690 lbs for payload which would be OK. Our '78 has never been resealed and it doesn't leak. Just look for signs of a leak. If you don't see (or smell) any, just keep gas in it and don't leave it out in the sun all the time and it will probably last a long time. Tie it down on the ramp for years and you probably won't be so lucky.

Below is a quote from another thread here on MooneySpace. According to Trek, the IFD does not pass the information needed to provide envelope protection. "Annnnd….. Another new wrinkle…. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My name is Trek Lawler and I'm the Supervisor of Garmin's Aviation Field Service Engineering team. I monitor different public forums and provide feedback and help to these members when they have problems such as this. Your thread was brought to my attention and I wanted to provide you some feedback. Actually Garmin's STC does call out the Navigators it is approved to interface with, in this case the GFC 500 requires an interface to a G5 or a G3X system utilizing the CAN buss, if you review these STC's closely you will see that the only GPS navigators we have as approved interfaces are the Garmin series of nav units. We've never tested or approved any third party GPS navigators for any of our STC's. This unfortunately is an oversight it sounds from the installer in this case to review and verify if this system was in fact approved in this configuration. As you have found out it appears the IFD series of units do not provide the height above terrain data that is necessary for the ESP function to work correctly. At this point since we do not have any plans for this integration I'd recommend that you contact your installer so they can try and work out a resolution so that you can have all of the functionality of the system. Piper forum July 13/2020 --------------------------------------------------------------- This may apply to some legacy Garmin navigators as well.. Any that do NOT send "Height above terrain" data mess up the under speed protection and we are not sure what else... DO DIG into the STC carefully and check for compatibility with your Navigator including older Garmins. This was discovered by a Piper pilot as he and his tech (with Garmin's help) were trying to figure our why the underspeed function did not work... Nobody at this time seems to be sure how the handshake works... Or sure why the height above terrain is significant. It's early… Apparently not all the Garmin people were aware of this... The conversation usually stops at "We do not support (whatever) " They require an "All Garmin" panel .. End of story... This is all third hand info, FWIW. The above statement however was posted by the named Garmin Rep. and is believed to be accurate.. N"

I thought I'd also heard that the IFD does not pass GPS altitude to the G5 either, which means the envelope protection portion won't work either. For me, even if everything worked except the VNAV, that would still be a good enough reason for me to go with Garmin even if it cost me a bit more. I use VNAV a LOT.

If you want to replace the GNS530w, I'd probably go with either the GTN750 or GTN650. Either the original or the Txi version. While the Avidyne would be cheaper to install than the Garmin, it won't necessarily allow your GFC500 to do everything it is capable of.

Most of the information is available in the G5 manual (which is the brains of the GFC500). That can be downloaded at any time. I did exactly that myself.

It's called READ THE MANUAL. If you don't know about it because you didn't read the AFMS you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Yes, if you are above 200' AGL, unless you turn off ESP.

Correct. However, it only stays off for that flight. When you remove power from the system (engine shutdown for example) and power up again (next flight for example), envelope protection will be on. If you want it off for that flight you'll need to turn it off again.

If you really feel the need to fly slower than 65 KIAS, you can turn envelope protection off using the G5. Using my method, the slowest I would want to fly on final would be about 62 KIAS with just me and 10 gallons of gas. I can live with the extra 3 or 4 knots down to 200' AGL. I turned it off the other day for my BFR so I could do stalls and steep turns.

What I meant to say was a Skyways OH'd engine.

I'll take some of that! I'll install a new IO-360 on my plane for $35,000. I'll put about 300 hours on it to 'distress it' and then I'll sell it for $45,000. What do you think? Any takers?

Man there's a lot of negativity on here lately. Maybe it's because we've been cooped up too long. Life does not always work exactly the way we want and we can't always get it our way. Bitching about it doesn't fix it. Unhappy people don't live any longer than the rest of us, they just FEEL like they've lived longer. Stepping down off my soapbox. Bob

Garmin never promised it would work with other navigators. When paired with the approved navigators it works as advertised. As a matter of fact it works very well as advertised. The reason the 'others' do that is usually because they don't make all the avionics required. STEC doesn't make navigators for GA. Aspen doesn't make autopilots. TT doesn't make navigators. Trio doesn't make navigators. If any of them want to be able to sell their equipment, 'they' need to make sure it works with the other equipment. And 'they' can do that with the Garmin AP too if they wish. There is no reason why 'they' should expect Garmin to do their work for them.

You didn't read that very carefully. Even if the autopilot is OFF, if I am above 200' AGL and I let my speed drop below 65 KIAS, the pitch servo will turn on and apply nose down force to the yoke in order to prevent a potential stall situation.

The brains of the autopilot are in the G5 and they are all the same. What you refer to as the GFC500 is just a control panel for pilot input to the brains. Not all Garmin Certified Installers are created equal. I don't blame Garmin for not taking the time to test every other manufacturer's equipment for compatibility. That takes time and money and increases the likelihood that an end user will buy someone else's navigator. It would be up to the other manufacturer to guy a GFC and do their own testing and changes to make their equipment compatible. They can then issue their own paperwork.

The low speed protection part of the ESP system uses that info. If you allow your speed to get below a speed that is aircraft model dependent AND your altitude is MORE than 200' AGL, the pitch servo will apply nose down force to keep you from getting slower. You don't want the servos doing that while you are flaring to land. It's in the AFMS. For the M20J the speeds are 65 KIAS with the autopilot OFF and 69 KIAS with the autopilot ON.

You are correct. That is a go away quote. Our shop charged us about $31,000 to remove the KFC200 ($1700) and install dual G5's with a 4 servo GFC500.

Having accurate fuel gauges, I do this: Switch tanks as needed to keep them within 5 gallons of each other on a quantity that is divisible by 5. When one tank is at 15 gallons and I switch to the other, I run the other side down to 12 instead of 10. At that point I switch back to the tank with 15 and stay on that tank until it is empty or until I'm about to enter the pattern for landing. That way I know I have at least 12 gallons in the active tank for pattern work. Similar to the K mentioned earlier, my J has a caution about extreme maneuvers with less than 8 gallons.

No problem. There are lots of ways to monitor fuel level: Fuel counters on an engine monitor is great IF we take the time to calibrate it accurately AND IF we take the time to enter the correct amount of fuel before flight. Fuel burn and time work great IF we operate the same way every time AND IF we remember to operate that way (vs forgetting to lean because we got distracted) AND IF we know how much gas we started with. Having a good fuel counter, accurate fuel gauges, and good planning all combine to reduce the odds of accidentally running out of fuel. If someone fills the tanks every time and never flies for more than 2 or 3 hours, then they probably don't need to worry about any of that.

But some specialty shops like Western Skyways balance their engines better than Lycoming specs. That means a smoother running engine with less stress on everything and everybody.

If I'm not mistaken, the fuel low lights are based on the float readings. They are not two independent systems. If the float stops working for the gauge, it also stops working for the low light.