Ramp Checks

[Bennett]

Just remembered another Mooney flight. This one to the Dominican Republic. The government of the DR invited about 100 American Pilots to come visit their section of Hispaniola. When we landed

we given given several bottles of local RUM, and other goodies, and a huge party was thrown for the pilot group. The military (Air Force)gave us a staff car and driver, and even more

impressive, each aircraft had a complete squad of Army personnel to safeguard their aircraft. Every airplane had a set of tents pitched next to it, and armed personnel constantly walked

around the airplanes. Almost comical, were it not carried out with such seriousness. The next day we broke off from the group, and with the invitation (and attention to my very attractive

female co-pilot) we flew IFR to the DR Air Force base. The commanding general of their Air Force himself provided us with a homemade GPS approach to the base. We flew this approach with a

Sony handheld, non moving map, GPS. Those were the old bold days (read stupid). While in the DR I never felt so protected before, or since. No idea if they were just being nice, or really

were worried about drugs and smuggling.

[rockydoc]

When I used to fly to Grand Turk in the British West Indies I was always concerned that someone might put some sort of small package of drugs into the airplane, with the idea of recovering it later in the US. At the time there was a good deal of drug activity in Grand Turk - twins landing at night, taxing to the far end of the field, refueling from a truck at midnight, etc. I

also knew that the DEA was actively placing their own trackers (a form of transponder) into aircraft, without the owner's knowledge or permission. Since I was spending a good deal of time in

Grand Turk, and all of the British West Indies, on a Columbus Landfall project, I was sure I was exposed to this practice. So I made a habit of lining up all the screwheads in the inspection

panels in the tail section of the aircraft. Sure enough, one time when I came out to preflight the airplane prior to departing for Florida I noticed that the screw heads were no longer

aligned in the rectangular (rounded corners) inspection panel just under the horizontal stabilizer of the left side of the aircraft. I opened the panel and found a relatively small black box with antenna wired into the tail navigation light circuit. This was done by striping back some of the wiring plastic coating and used clamp on fittings. This could have been dangerous, had

the wires shorted and taken out at least part of the electrical system, and who knew how much current the back box would draw. In any event, I was angry about this idea, and I removed the

clamped on flittings, taped up the now bare wires, and threw the box on the tarmac, and literally stomped on it. I then flew back to the US without any problems or repercussions. On my next

flight to Grand turk another black box was spliced in a different place on the tail lighting circuit, using a different inspection plate. Pulled it out, stomped on it as before. On the next

trip I wandered around the two bars on Grand Turk, walked up to a tall american looking gentleman with a crew cut, and asked him plain out "Are you with the DEA?". He looked at me for a

minute, and said "Yes". He recognized me as the Mooney pilot. We had a very frank conversation about the black boxes, why I was in Grand Turk, and after buying him a couple of drinks we came to an understanding. He would not install the trackers, and I would not stomp on them. Earl,his name, turned out to be a pretty good guy, and I learned a bit about how many aircraft were

used in drug smuggling. This habit of aligning screw heads (even Philips heads)remains with me on my Mexico flights - not as many as in the past. Only takes a few minutes to align the heads on the most accessible inspection plates. Not paranoid - just wary.

When I used to fly the "smugglers choice" airplane (Cessna 310) in and out of the Carribean and Mexico every couple of weeks, I was placed on the government's "Watch List."  I can't tell you the scrutiny that I was put through every time I passed through customs--until post 9/11.  Then they stopped even looking at me.  i suppose they had bigger fish to fry.  i live in Puerto Vallarta now and fly all over Mexico.  At first I was worried about my airplane being stolen, then about drugs being planted.  But, for what its worth, I've never had a problem.

[rockydoc]

This has happened before with cars.  http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/man_convicted_in_tex-mex_pot_smuggling_scheme_that_ensnared_innocent_driver/

 

and

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/world/americas/mexico-blind-drug-mules

 

 

 

Throw it on the ground and go like there is no tomorrow!  There is more than one person in a Mexican jail after calling the police for similar incidents.

Thanks for the articles.  Scary thing, eh?  I have dual Mexico/USA citizenship and have lived here for nearly 20 years.  Although, I have never had a bad experience, I am well enough connected through my business (I own a hotel) with great legal representation that anything that comes up I can take care of.

[AndyFromCB]

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2013/130516pilot-detained-searched-for-mysterious-reasons.html?CMP=ADV:1

 

This sounds exactly like what happen to me, in October 2011, if you guys remember.

 

My route was KLAX-KPUB-KCBF

[TWinter]

As a retired LEO (cop) my view is that flying and ramp checks are much like a driver's license and traffic stops. The only real difference is the police need probable cause to stop you. Then they will check for valid license, current registration, inspection etc..again a driver's license is only a privilege, not a right. By exercising the the "privilege" to drive we also accept the fact that we may be stopped and checked if a LEO feels there is just cause. If all is in order you are on your way.

 

As pilots we took certain tests to earn the "privilege" to fly. A ramp check is merely a traffic stop so to speak conducted by FAA at the airport..A ramp inspector has more discretion and has more latitude to pick who he checks. On the brighter side as most have noted he only makes safety suggestions and you are on your way. Getting cuffed and stuffed into his FAA sedan is unlikely.

 

Wrapping up...It was a not to long ago that a GA crash happened. The guy had no flight review, consumed alcohol prior, the plane was out of annual and no medical. A recent ramp check may have saved a few lifes.

 

I admit I'll probably be the first guy to bitch about being delayed because of a ramp check, but it's part of the "Privilege". As far as all the other posts about government theory, big brother and rights etc. I'm a simple guy. It's just a safety check, no more, no less.

If you have your stuff in order you are good to go.

[danb35]

Rockydoc, I think you're missing something. You don't have a right to tell the FAA inspector to go away because you're too busy for a ramp check. His internal policies tell him that he should, and if he refuses you may have the basis for a complaint to the FSDO or the FAA IG, but that doesn't confer a substantive right on the pilot.

I didn't exercise the "I'm too busy" clause when I was ramp checked, for a few reasons. First, I wasn't aware of it at the time. Second, even if I had been, I just wasn't that busy. And really, how many of us are? It would take the inspector about 5 minutes to verify the documentation. I suspect it's a fairly rare case for any of us when we can't spare 5 minutes at the end of a flight.

[N601RX]

I think some people are talking about 2 entirely different things on this and another similiar thread. A typical FAA ramp check is one thing. What homeland security it doing and perhaps trying to push over as a ramp check is an entirely different matter.

[rockydoc]

Rockydoc, I think you're missing something. You don't have a right to tell the FAA inspector to go away because you're too busy for a ramp check. His internal policies tell him that he should, and if he refuses you may have the basis for a complaint to the FSDO or the FAA IG, but that doesn't confer a substantive right on the pilot.

I didn't exercise the "I'm too busy" clause when I was ramp checked, for a few reasons. First, I wasn't aware of it at the time. Second, even if I had been, I just wasn't that busy. And really, how many of us are? It would take the inspector about 5 minutes to verify the documentation. I suspect it's a fairly rare case for any of us when we can't spare 5 minutes at the end of a flight.

Being a law abiding citizen who carries many credentials, I make certain that they are all organized and ready for presentation should the need arise.  However, my point is that, as Americans, we have certain rights like having an attorney present during questioning, being innocent until proven guilty (not having to take a lie detector test to prove our innocence) and delaying a ramp check and refusing entry to our aircraft--should we so desire to do so.  Government officials use intimidating tactics ("What are you hiding?  If you have nothing to hide, why are you objecting?") to pursuade us to relinquish our rights.  I think that, as Americans, we have an OBLIGATION

[rockydoc]

Being a law abiding citizen who carries many credentials, I make certain that they are all organized and ready for presentation should the need arise.  However, my point is that, as Americans, we have certain rights like having an attorney present during questioning, being innocent until proven guilty (not having to take a lie detector test to prove our innocence) and delaying a ramp check and refusing entry to our aircraft--should we so desire to do so.  Government officials use intimidating tactics ("What are you hiding?  If you have nothing to hide, why are you objecting?") to pursuade us to relinquish our rights.  I think that, as Americans, we have an OBLIGATION to exercise those rights CONSISTANTLY so that they are preserved for our children's children.  Judging from the PMs I received from people on this forum, I feel that the majority of you share my feelings.

[rockydoc]

Being a law abiding citizen who carries many credentials, I make certain that they are all organized and ready for presentation should the need arise.  However, my point is that, as Americans, we have certain rights like having an attorney present during questioning, being innocent until proven guilty (not having to take a lie detector test to prove our innocence) and delaying a ramp check and refusing entry to our aircraft--should we so desire to do so.  Government officials use intimidating tactics ("What are you hiding?  If you have nothing to hide, why are you objecting?") to pursuade us to relinquish our rights.  I think that, as Americans, we have an OBLIGATION

An OBLIGATION

[danb35]

Heavens, Allsmiles is agreeing with me.  Never thought I'd see the day.  Rockydoc, yes, we have many rights as Americans (though some of the biggies are eroding fast).  Delaying a ramp check is not one of them.  That's an FAA procedure, not our substantive right.

 

Now, if you want to try it out, feel free.  I don't think I'd have a problem with it myself, if I were truly short on time ("I'm sorry, but there's a meeting I really need to be at in about 10 minutes--can we do this another time?").  Keep in mind, though, that (based on what's quoted from that policy) this only applies in cases of time conflicts, and of course you can't lie about a conflict (or anything else) just to avoid the ramp check.  I can't really imagine a scenario where I'd be flying somewhere on that tight of a schedule, but no doubt there could be something.

[cujet]

As a FAR 135 operator of a G550, and several other aircraft, ramp checks were a yearly, or more frequent, affair.

Not to mention the large number of FAA maintenance (part 145) checks I've been through. 

 

Lately, the FAA has been less willing to travel and this months ramp check was canceled. 

 

My advice:

 

1) Review the FAA guidance on ramp checks

2) Ensure you have everything on the guidance list and operate a completely airworthy aircraft.

 

AND, most importantly:

 

3) If at all possible, avoid a ramp check any way you can, regardless of how innocent the check may seem. It's nice that the inspector above "sugar coats" the situation. The reality is that you are putting yourself at significant risk. Don't ever discount the fact that they are only interested in finding some form of error, a job they are well trained to do, (error is what they are looking for after all) and you will pay the price for that error. Using the "risk-reward ratio" calculation, this situation is 100% skewed against you. As you have nothing to gain and much to lose. 

 

I have stories you would not believe, so serious they can't be posted here. 

 

I can't tell you what to do if approached. But in my case, I'd rather walk away, hit the head in a dire emergency, rent a car and stay in a local hotel than risk a ramp check. 

[cujet]

 

 

I agree with you 100% 

 

First off, there is something about entry and search that the FAA has in it's guidance, that is unconstitutional. They are required to check the ELT battery date. On many aircraft, that requires entry, baggage removal and some minor aircraft disassembly. A perfect way to do a full search of an aircraft. 

 

It's really too bad people don't understand their rights. Such as the right to "free and unrestricted travel". 

[cujet]

If you're prepared and have everything in order I don't see any reason one should feel "intimidated" or like they're being "bullied."   

Really?

 

The inspector's only goal is to find violations. And you can't see a reason to be concerned? As an aviation professional, I'm here to tell you, I have every reason to be concerned. The FAA can YANK my tickets on a whim, and I have ZERO recourse. I can't take them to court, I can't hold the US Constitution over their heads, I have no power to fight the system. They can, and often do, act arbitrarily, ruining peoples lives in the process. Want to know more. PM me. 

[danb35]

Cujet, I reject your premise that "the inspector's only goal is to find violations."  Any aircraft can be found unairworthy, and of course flying an unairworthy aircraft is a violation.  Yet, somehow, most ramp checks don't end in condition notices being attached to the aircraft or the pilot being charged with violations.  These facts can't be reconciled with your assertion.

 

It's also false that the FAA can yank your tickets on a whim, and that you have no recourse.  They can only perform an emergency revocation if you're demonstrably a danger to the skies (anything other than an emergency requires notice and an opportunity to be heard before they take any action), and you do have recourse, including (but not limited to) taking them to court.

[PTK]

The inspector's only goal is to find violations. ..I can't take them to court, I can't hold the US Constitution over their heads...

Cujet, you seem to be under the false impression that you have a right to your tickets! Our certificate is not a right but an FAA issued "privilege." The FAA issues these privileges with conditions in the form of FAR's that we agree to abide by and they need to enforce. The Constitution offers no protection here.

I reject your notion that they somehow target an airplane on the ramp because they feel like "...today is a good day to ruin somebody's livelihood!"

That's paranoia!

[chrisk]

Our license is not a right but an FAA issued "privilege." The FAA issues these privileges with conditions in the form of FAR's that we agree to abide by and they need to enforce. The Constitution offers no protection here.  

Just because something is a privileged, it should not mean abandoning your constitutional rights.   In particular due process.

[Z W]

FAA ramp checks are quite possibly unconstitutional.  It's been held that drivers on the roads cannot be stopped randomly just to check and see if their license and registration are current.  The LEOs on the roads must have some safety reason to be performing the checkpoint at that particular location - they usually use a history of recent DUI arrests on that street.

 

If somebody has challenged a FAA ramp check on 4th amendment grounds I would very much like to see the opinion, whichever way it was decided.

 

Nothing is more un-American than the government stopping you for no reason and saying, "Show me your papers."  Allowing it just because driving is a "privilege" has failed the constitutional test.  If it's ever challenged for an airplane the result might be the same.

 

I'm talking here about just an FAA ramp check where they have no authority to enter your plane and just check your required documentation.  DHS ripping it apart and searching the inside without probable cause or a warrant is a blatant 4th amendment violation.

[PTK]

Just because something is a privileged, it should not mean abandoning your constitutional rights.   In particular due process.

I'm not an expert on constitutional law but what Constitutional rights are you abandoning if you simply abide by the conditions of the privilege extended to you?  Obey the FARs you agreed to obey and show you are when asked. 

 

Consider this: We have been given the privilege to take an airplane up into airspace which we do not own. The airspace in which we fly is not our property. We have no more right to be there than the next person. It's a privilege. The FAA enforces this in order to keep it safe for all. 

 

How many ramp checks have been done on airplanes sitting in hangars? No more than on your car sitting in your driveway or garage.

[danb35]

Just because something is a privileged, it should not mean abandoning your constitutional rights.   In particular due process.

That's correct, and it in fact does not mean that.  The distinction between a "right" and a "privilege" is meaningless when it comes to due process.  However, "due process" in most cases (including certificate actions) means that you're given notice of the proceedings and an opportunity to be heard, and except in an emergency those have to take place before any action is taken.

[danb35]

FAA ramp checks are quite possibly unconstitutional.

OTOH, some other licenses certainly allow random inspections to confirm compliance.  Restaurants, for example, can be inspected by the health department to confirm that they're operating within the regulations.  What's the difference?  I'm not sure--it might have something to do with the traffic stop being a detention by police.

[BigTex]

We all know that operating a car or aircraft is a privilege, not a right.  The real question we're discussing is why would a person with a pilot's license not have the same rights under the law as folks driving a car?  Both are privileges and should have the same protections/rights. 

[DonMuncy]

This should not be taken personally, as I do not want any of us in trouble. But I hope that someday, the Feds do a ramp check on a pilot, find a violation, charge him, and he has enough money and will to fight them to the end. Then maybe we could get a higher court ruling similar to what we have for automobile. That is, you can't stop people randomly to check for violations.

[PTK]

We all know that operating a car or aircraft is a privilege, not a right.  The real question we're discussing is why would a person with a pilot's license not have the same rights under the law as folks driving a car?  Both are privileges and should have the same protections/rights. 

What "rights" do we have when driving that we don't have when flying?

 

A ramp check is a safety and documents check. Much like a traffic stop is a random check of motorists.

 

Almost always it's triggered by a complaint to the local FSDO. So from the start the one big thing the inspector is looking at and could be a mitigating factor, is the attitude the pilot has towards regulation. If he/she senses an attitude or abusive behavior on the part of the pilot this can only be taken as bad regulatory attitude and will certainly not help. 

[BigTex]

LEO's can't randomly pull you over without cause.  I just don't see any difference between operating a car, plane or anything else that requires an operators license.  FWIF, I have the same issue with the Coast Guard boarding boats to perform random  "safety checks."