Sauduster Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I have an 18 year old RC Allen Electric Attitude Indicator that has quit working. It is used as a back-up indicator to the Vacuum Attitude Indicator in my 64 C Model. Would you have it fixed/overhauled for I think about $600 or would you put in a Dynon D1 for $1375? The Dynon will mount/clip in to the existing Electric AI hole. I am A VFR pilot at this time but plan on working on my Instrument Rating soon. Thanks for your input. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I dont think the dynon is legal , Technically the turn coordinator should be your backup (electric) ...... I would put the money towards something more useful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I think Dynon is legal (not perm installation), just supplemental to his vac AI. That said, a back-up plan for vacuum failure is a good idea (beyond the rest of the 6-pack) however, not knowing your panel, there's a lot of other nice to haves that would trump that for IFR flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 You either need an electric AI or electric T/C to be legal for IFR. However, the Dynon is superior. If you have room, you can install a used T/C for 300$ and put in a Dynon D1. I ran my Castleberry electric AI off the main bus but after 50 hours it failed. They blamed it on power surges during starting, so i had to power it with the avionics bus. I think the main bus is more reliable, but no way to do it. The Dynon is a similar issue. EDIT: I failed to clarify. The Dynon is not a legal alternative to FAR required instruments for IFR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 To be IFR legal there must be a turn and bank or a second AI. These instruments must be installed with an FAA approval. The Dynon does not meet either requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigOne Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I'd do the same as Jetdriven. The D1A is also a GPS receiver and provides GPS ground speed, altitude, vertical speed, and ground track and can run on battery or the aircraft's power. I love all of the high quality Dynon's products for the experimental aircrafts and I wish we could use them without restrictions. After all experimental aircrafts fully equipped with Dynon's gear are permitted in the IFR system. Go figure . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 If you have the Brittain wing leveler that is driven off the turn cordinator, the turn cordinator should run off both suction and voltage. If one fails the other takes over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triple8s Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 (quote) " It is used as a back-up indicator to the Vacuum Attitude" If the instrument you are replacing is a back-up and not one of the instruments required in those "for IFR flight" then I personally would put a D1 in its place. I just got my bird back from a panel upgrade and I now have an extra place in my panel, I've too been thinking of going with the D1. I dont think it can be panel mounted and be legal nor can it be hard wired and be legal, however, legal or no, if a pilot lost AI or T/C it could be a lifesaver. The D1 has a backup battery so in case of electrical failure it keeps on clickin along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rwsavory Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I would repair the RC Allen. The $775 can be put to better use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Core for the RC Allen is only $450 and likely over $700 for a OH/exchange. Then what do you still have? The sloppiest, droopiest AI ever designed. Many people ruin these units by continuously pulling the cage lever after sturt up. The RC Allen takes a long time to get to full speed, so users cage it too early, then it is out of reference, then you cage it again and so on. In addition to a vacum AI, you only need a slip/skid in a 64C to be IFR, so I think the DI would be money better spent. I'd fly with that rather than an old RC Allen rebuilt unit. My $.02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigOne Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I would repair the RC Allen. The $775 can be put to better use. I didn't know about the issues with the RC Allen AI that 52H mentioned but other things being equal I certainly disagree that $775 can be put to better use than a back up AI which btw not only can run on battery power but also includes a bunch of other nav information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rwsavory Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I didn't know about the issues with the RC Allen AI that 52H mentioned but other things being equal I certainly disagree that $775 can be put to better use than a back up AI which btw not only can run on battery power but also includes a bunch of other nav information. How about paying for IFR training? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I see that the OP has no gallery, so I'm only going off the thumbnail picture in his avatar, but it looks like he already has the required AI and turn coordinator to be IFR legal. The AI he is considering trading, seems to be an elective, redundant AI, not a required one. In this case, the Dynon is great replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Follow-up: I have owned an RC Allen for 12 years and it had the problems I mentioned. I researched core exchange and rebuild. I also fly with two other friends who have the same RC Allen unit and they behave similarly. Also, Byron mentioned the Castleberry unit, sold for only $1500 through Sporty's. Based on what I have heard about them (and Catsleberry FD's), their service history is not comparably the best and they are refered to by many as "delicate". Re: DI......I think it is a game changer. If I were a CFII flying in the junk everyday, I'd devote my headset budget to a DI and carry it from plane to plane. Or if I had a Pitts, it could help a lot. Finally, I think Aspen, Garmin and Dynon products are game changers for Pre J non standard panels. I think the price is worth it. Even as high as 30% of hull value, fancy avionics can now change the untility and dispatch of these great planes. A $9k Aspen install can evolve a $45k 66 E model considerably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Another option is RC Allen's digital units. I've had one now for 3 years in my aircraft (removed it from arrow, reinstalled in Mooney) and could not be happier. Pricy at $3300 with back up battery, but works flawlessly in my experience and it's completely independent of the bus in case of electrical gremlins causing one to turn the master switch off. As to Aspens/G500, etc, after having the Aspen in my Arrow and the standard KI256/HSI system in my Mooney, I honestly do not miss it at all. With my Garmin 797 mounted on the yoke and GMX 200 over my GNS430 and flight director, I do not feel I've given up any situation awareness at all and saved myself 20K in purchase and install costs. That's a lot of KI256 overhaul's which seems to last about 1000 hours or so in my airplane according to log books. Now, as to the flight director, I do not understand how I ever flew an airplane without before. It's the best thing since sliced bread, bar none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Also, Byron mentioned the Castleberry unit, sold for only $1500 through Sporty's. Based on what I have heard about them (and Catsleberry FD's), their service history is not comparably the best and they are refered to by many as "delicate". The Castleberry is now 2500$ through Spruce, and AFAIK it is better than the RCAllen, but yes you have to be careful with it. It does take 3-4 minutes to spool up and the erection mechanism is weak. I wonder if it would get out of whack during unusial attitudes. But it is lighted and has a very precise pitch indicator. We got it for a grand on eBay and 75 hours later had to spend 400$ on a repair. The Mitchell vacuum AI erects within seconds and is very accurate. It alos drives the autopilot. here is our installation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Byron...how fast are you flying there? I can't read it. Were you maintaining straight and level with the airspeed needle? :) (joking, of course). Astel...precisely my point, even a $1300 digital device or a $20k digital device, comensurately can change how you fly. I think the Dynon is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Level flight, 87 knots IAS. I was fooling with the fuel flow and got it down to 4.2 GPH. A few days later I got 3.9 GPH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I love my dynon pocket panel. I have it 'docked' into a standard hole in my panel as a backup. http://dynonavionics.com/docs/D1_intro.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sauduster Posted January 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Thanks for all of your input to my question. I do have the primary vacuum AI, an STEC 30 with turn coordinator and slip/skid ball.I do understand that the other gauges can be used to fly the plane if one loses the AI. The D1 can be installed in a panel hole with a pinch type mount that comes with it (thus not permanently mouted). Since this is a back-up and is not a required piece of equipment for IFR flight, it seems to me to be biggest bang for the buck. If I decice to not get my IR, I will probably use the current electric AI hole to install an engine monitor (JPI 730 or 830) at a later date. I have only had this plane a short while and just recently got my PPL in it. I have been reading "Instrument Flying" to help me decide if I want to work towards an Instrument Rating so the bigger question may be IR or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Thanks for all of your input to my question. I do have the primary vacuum AI, an STEC 30 with turn coordinator and slip/skid ball.I do understand that the other gauges can be used to fly the plane if one loses the AI. The D1 can be installed in a panel hole with a pinch type mount that comes with it (thus not permanently mouted). Since this is a back-up and is not a required piece of equipment for IFR flight, it seems to me to be biggest bang for the buck. If I decice to not get my IR, I will probably use the current electric AI hole to install an engine monitor (JPI 730 or 830) at a later date. I have only had this plane a short while and just recently got my PPL in it. I have been reading "Instrument Flying" to help me decide if I want to work towards an Instrument Rating so the bigger question may be IR or not? I have 2 suggestions. First - go out and fly your plane! Enjoy it. Take some cross countries, but not too far... Go too far, and you'll invariably understand why you want that instrument rating. You'll get stuck, or be rushing to beat the weather. Remember, the weather doesn't have to be bad to ground a Visual pilot. Just needs to be cloudy. But then, if you enjoy travelling with the plane - and well, the Mooney is made for it, go get the IR. It makes you safer IMHO, but very importantly it makes the airplane a real travelling machine. I got stuck places all the time without my IR, which would have been trivial with... good luck! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 It also makes you a much more precise pilot. Mooney's are "numbers" airplanes. One degree of pitch is a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sauduster Posted January 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 gsengle, I appreciate your suggestions. I flew an experimenatl that I built as a sport pilot from Dallas to CA a couple of times and to Oshkosh twice. I flew the Mooney to Sacramento about 6 weeks ago. I do like it as a traveling machine. I replaced the experimental with the Mooney to get more range and capacity. The plane is equipped with a Garmin 530W and autopilot with altitude hold so I think it would be a good platform to learn instruments in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 .....I have been reading "Instrument Flying" to help me decide if I want to work towards an Instrument Rating so the bigger question may be IR or not? There is NO question. If you want to really enjoy you big new machine and master the skies rather than be a slave to it, get that instrument ticket soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Level flight, 87 knots IAS. I was fooling with the fuel flow and got it down to 4.2 GPH. A few days later I got 3.9 GPH. Probably did both without landing once Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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