FF DYNAMIC PROCEDURES

[Rick Junkin]

I sent feedback to Foreflight this evening. I’m copying it here in the event anyone shares my observations and recommendations and also wants to send feedback. If we use similar words to present the same ideas the chances of our comments being grouped together increase and potentially raise the priority of consideration by the development team.

Greetings,

I’m sorry to say that the Dynamic Procedures implementation is disappointing, especially as compared to Garmin Pilot’s SmartCharts. I’m staying with Foreflight due to the superior aircraft performance features, but Garmin Pilot is catching up on that feature set and once they do I will be more compelled to make the switch to GP. I’ve subscribed to Foreflight since 2011, so this isn’t a decision I take lightly.

I installed a full Garmin panel in my Mooney and while Foreflight does everything I need, the Garmin Pilot integration with my avionics is naturally cleaner and the SmartCharts implementation makes it more usable in a single pilot hard IFR environment. I do prefer the weather, filing, and aircraft performance functions in Foreflight but those are all primarily on-the-ground planning functions. GP is moving ahead in the inflight functions that reduce workload when ease of use and timeliness are critical. 

Specifics on Dynamic Procedures. 

1. The disclaimer “Verify with chart” is a show-stopper. For a tailored SID/STAR/IAP feature set to be effective it must be a stand-alone simplified presentation of the applicable data in an easily digestible format. The disclaimer implies things may be missing or incorrect, and that’s not acceptable. I suspect the development team was constrained with a requirement to not produce anything that could fully replace Jepp plates. Garmin obviously had no such restriction and produced a superior product that can stand alone, and could become a standard or template for others to emulate.

Recommendation: Drive toward a single page stand-alone presentation of tailored data.

2. The data overlay on an IAP plate, accompanied by the side bar data, is cluttered and feels kludged together. I know a lot of thought and good work has gone in to this feature set but the result has a sub-optimal feel. For instance the pilot must scroll the sidebar or refer to the IAP plate to see the missed approach instructions. The GP implementation makes the instructions available with a single button, and in the very simple graphic format used on NOAA plates.

Recommendation: Reduce use of overlay/sidebar data to only supplemental or briefing data that flows and is easily digested.

3. The Dynamic Procedure presentation is only available on the Map page, and an approach must be either entered into the flight plan or sent to the map from the Airport page Procedure tab. This can be cumbersome in a divert scenario when identifying the best divert airfield.

Recommendation: Make display of the Dynamic Procedure format available directly in the Airport page Procedure tab. This would require implementation of a single page stand-alone tailored procedure format.

 

EDIT: At 11:30pm I received a personal response and request for more detailed suggestions from a Garmin Sr Customer Experience manager, 3 hours after I submitted my recommendations. They obviously are heavily engaged in refining Dynamic Procedures in response to subscriber feedback. Don’t be shy with your opinions, they want to know what we think!

[exM20K]

51 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

Interestingly Garmin Pilot does the same, but going back to select circling mins is only two button presses. In Foreflight it takes at least four button presses and possibly some scrolling.

This was operator error (me).  When you choose your mins on the selected approach, the minimums and circling notes persist in the “timeline” view.

[hammdo]

I sent ForeFlight a suggestion to create a DP version of map overlay with just the basic map and traffic - no side tool bar etc. just the route tray (nav/profile) and the DP options.

simple view and that would allow me to ‘toggle’ between map and DP. No turning off this overlay etc. simple view like this in the image. Toggle as need but independent mapping views - similar to Garmin pilot (although GP  does have Split View)…

-Don

[hammdo]

Ouch!

if i setup an approach, i can see all the dynamic procedure info, IF i expand the approach - poof, dynamic procedure is gone!

 

[Jackk]

Seemed good to me, saying sure the chart for official use seems basic legal text  

[Jackk]

Looks way better on the iPad too

 

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, Jackk said:

Seemed good to me, saying sure the chart for official use seems basic legal text  

I suspect it’s about the Jepp connection. FF’s offering is a chart enhancement, rather than a chart replacement. GP’s SmartCharts are a chart replacement. Garmin is pretty clear about that. No such “basic legal text.”

[Jackk]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I suspect it’s about the Jepp connection. FF’s offering is a chart enhancement, rather than a chart replacement. GP’s SmartCharts are a chart replacement. Garmin is pretty clear about that. No such “basic legal text.”

 I’d still  verify and overlay the plate 

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, Jackk said:

 I’d still  verify and overlay the plate 

Are you talking about Garmin Pilot SmartCharts? It's not necessary to "verify" SmartCharts, all the relevant and required data is presented in a completely stand-alone, tailored format.

However, Garmin gives you the option to switch between SmartCharts and and Jepp/NOS plates with a single button on the SmartCharts page. I think this is really a crutch to help folks get comfortable with using SmartCharts while still having the familiar Jepp/NOS plates immediately available. Smart on their part. No pun intended. 

[Jackk]

6 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

Are you talking about Garmin Pilot SmartCharts? It's not necessary to "verify" SmartCharts, all the relevant and required data is presented in a completely stand-alone, tailored format.

However, Garmin gives you the option to switch between SmartCharts and and Jepp/NOS plates with a single button on the SmartCharts page. I think this is really a crutch to help folks get comfortable with using SmartCharts while still having the familiar Jepp/NOS plates immediately available. Smart on their part. No pun intended. 

 I was talking foreflight no reason not to map overlay the plate (like in my pic) which is a near instant check of the data.

 

 Same way I brief my approach (before top of d) and verify the legs/alts/speeds  in the box match what my EFB states, set mins, note the missed alt to dial in on final, and important notes or notams and which way I want to exit the runway, after that I really don’t need to look at the EFB again until taxi.

Edited August 10 by Jackk

[Rick Junkin]

23 minutes ago, Jackk said:

 I was talking foreflight no reason not to map overlay the plate (like in my pic) which is a near instant check of the data.

Yes, agree, and that's really the difference between the FF and GP implementations. FF augments the heritage approach plates with tailored summary data, and GP obsoletes the heritage plates and doesn't require reference to them. Both are improvements that work.

[Jackk]

24 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

Yes, agree, and that's really the difference between the FF and GP implementations. FF augments the heritage approach plates with tailored summary data, and GP obsoletes the heritage plates and doesn't require reference to them. Both are improvements that work.

 At work when we brief or talk about plate it’s he always quickly reference the plate number and effective date.

 
 The big dogs there are jep pro (very foreflight based) for 121 and foreflight for 135 & 91, for whatever reason I have not heard of any flight departments running GP

 

 Not sure if there is any relation to still showing the actual plate and who uses the programs 

[Rick Junkin]

36 minutes ago, Jackk said:

Not sure if there is any relation to still showing the actual plate and who uses the programs 

Bingo. For quite a number of years ForeFlight has been putting a lot of effort toward features that benefit the corporate pilots, along with military and airline pilots. Many of those translate well to the light GA pilots, many do not. So the Dynamic Procedures implementation had to preserve the things that support the corporate and airline flight departments' SOP requirements. It would be interesting to see how their market share is distributed across pilot certificates and ratings. I'm guessing that's available somewhere.

Garmin appears focussed on making their aviation ecosystem have as much commonality and simplicity across their platforms as possible, Garmin Pilot included. This works well for most light GA pilots and aircraft owners, as well as business flight departments upgrading or purchasing new equipment. Anything that simplifies training and instrument flying is going to be popular with our market segment. Simplifying instrument approach procedure presentation the way they have is a brilliant move toward gaining buy-in from the incoming generations of student pilots. 

 

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I suspect it’s about the Jepp connection. FF’s offering is a chart enhancement, rather than a chart replacement. GP’s SmartCharts are a chart replacement. Garmin is pretty clear about that. No such “basic legal text.”

Just to clarify....  There is no change with the Chart/Approach Plate.  FF is using Jepp data to create the Route display, Profile display and adding the new Approach Drawer on the side of the Map page. 

Whether you use Jepp or Gov Approach Plates and Enroute Charts, they will stay the same. 

[Rick Junkin]

2 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Just to clarify....  There is no change with the Chart/Approach Plate.  FF is using Jepp data to create the Route display, Profile display and adding the new Approach Drawer on the side of the Map page. 

Whether you use Jepp or Gov Approach Plates and Enroute Charts, they will stay the same. 

I think what @midlifeflyer was getting at is that with Jeppesen and ForeFlight being owned by the same entity, There may be some reluctance to have ForeFlight develop a feature /capability that would replace the Jeppesen product and cut in to their market. Hence enhancement rather than replacement. 

[Jackk]

47 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

I think what @midlifeflyer was getting at is that with Jeppesen and ForeFlight being owned by the same entity, There may be some reluctance to have ForeFlight develop a feature /capability that would replace the Jeppesen product and cut in to their market. Hence enhancement rather than replacement. 

 I don’t think that’s a issue

 

Jepp is the data that drives FF, one can’t replace the other.

 

 Also JeppPro and Foreflight share a TON of features, if anything JepPro (minus some taxi features) is a stripped down version of FF.

 

 Even for non rev pilots, I’d say overlaying the plate and verifying the effective dates is cheap insurance as computers do mess up, especially as we move more and more coding off shore 

 I get the warm fuzzies on that dark stormy night when I see my official gov/jep plate overlay (best set to being semi transparent) and everything matches up.  It’s not likely the “dynamic” stuff is going to be wrong, but if it was Im the one who’s going to end up just dental records, not the dude coding in India, or the corp CEO.  Takes but a second and costs me nothing to view the overlay, that’s the cheapest insurance you’ll find in aviation 

Edited August 10 by Jackk

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

There may be some reluctance to have ForeFlight develop a feature /capability that would replace the Jeppesen product and cut in to their market.

Actually kind of doubt that.  And if I were connected to a company like Jeppesen, it would be a REALLY STUPID business move to recreate the wheel.   Especially when you already have access to all of their data.

 

[midlifeflyer]

19 hours ago, Jackk said:

 I’d still  verify and overlay the plate 

In GP, it is the plate.  Just a different design of the same source information.  The source is regulatory. The format it is placed in is not.  

As recently as three months ago, I was looking for a good way to add Jepp charts to GP. Mostly because if the georeferenced SIDs and STARs.  No longer needed. The SmartCharts do those just fine. Better IMO.

 

 

Edited August 11 by midlifeflyer

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

In GP, it is the plate.  Just a different design of the same source information.  The source is regulatory. The format it is placed in is not.  

As recently as three months ago, I was looking for a good way to add Jepp charts to GP. Mostly because if the georeferenced SIDs and STARs.  No longer needed. The SmartCharts do those just fine. Better IMO.

 

 

 How do you verify that source data is correct and in date?

 

 Guess you could verify the leg lengths and constrictions  off your panel mount, but you could also just overlay the plate where you clearly can see the effective date and it should line up.    Or like me you would do all 3, verify against the chart of your EFB, then verify/brief that against the box.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Jackk said:

 How do you verify that source data is correct and in date?

 

 Guess you could verify the leg lengths and constrictions  off your panel mount, but you could also just overlay the plate where you clearly can see the effective date and it should line up.    Or like me you would do all 3, verify against the chart of your EFB, then verify/brief that against the box.

How do you verify that the information on a Jepp or FAA chart is correct and in date? For that matter, how do you know that the traditional chart you look at on your EFB is correct and in date? That marginal notation? It's electronically added to the chart by both foreflight and Garmin pilot. That's why updates are so fast. The only traditional charts that get updated in either app or those which have a change. Otherwise it's the same  old chart as the last time the source document got updated, which might have been years ago. with the new marginal date added digitally. In fact for a while, Garmin pilot didn't even have the dates. But I think was user feedback that got them to add it later.

We're sort of at different points of view. You see a chart and some unknown digital presentation. I see a traditional chart and a digital chart. Do you think that Jepp and the FAA charting office have a regulatory monopoly? You won't find that anywhere. The only reason "Joe's Basement Charting Service" isn't accepted is that we don't trust Joe. I trust Garmin as much as I trust Jeppesen and the FAA charting office  to take the regulatory source documents and translate them into a chart. And it's not as though Jepp and the FAA charting office never made mistakes.

I won't argue your preference. But I will say, that it is only a preference.

By the way, I do the same as you. I always verify the sequence of waypoints in the box with the chart, whichever type of chart I happen to be using.

 

Edited August 11 by midlifeflyer

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

How do you verify that the information on a Jepp or FAA chart is correct and in date? For that matter, how do you know that the traditional chart you look at on your EFB is correct and in date? That marginal notation? It's electronically added to the chart by both foreflight and Garmin pilot. That's why updates are so fast. The only traditional charts that get updated in either app or those which have a change. Otherwise it's the same  old chart as the last time the source document got updated, which might have been years ago. with the new marginal date added digitally. In fact for a while, Garmin pilot didn't even have the dates. But I think was user feedback that got them to add it later.

We're sort of at different points of view. You see a chart and some unknown digital presentation. I see a traditional chart and a digital chart. Do you think that Jepp and the FAA charting office have a regulatory monopoly? You won't find that anywhere. The only reason "Joe's Basement Charting Service" isn't accepted is that we don't trust Joe. I trust Garmin as much as I trust Jeppesen and the FAA charting office  to take the regulatory source documents and translate them into a chart. And it's not as though Jepp and the FAA charting office never made mistakes.

I won't argue your preference. But I will say, that it is only a preference.

By the way, I do the same as you. I always verify the sequence of waypoints in the box with the chart, whichever type of chart I happen to be using

Most other EFBs also provide charts and plates and don't use Garmin or Jeppesen to get them, and they provide them for free.   I think many (if not all) do some of their own processing to them to make them compatible with how they handle graphics and presentation, so users of those EFBs are actually trusting "Joe's Basement Charting Service".   I used Avare for many years, which is a free EFB with free charts and plates.   Now I use iFly, which does require a nominal paid subscription but provides charts and plates (non-Garmin or Jepp) with that subscription.   There are other free or very low-cost EFBs that do the same.

I've been trying to figure out for a long time what value Garmin or Jepp adds to basic charts or plates that the free services don't.    This dynamic stuff is new, and I suspect the other EFBs, even the free ones, may follow before too long.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Most other EFBs also provide charts and plates and don't use Garmin or Jeppesen to get them, and they provide them for free.   I think many (if not all) do some of their own processing to them to make them compatible with how they handle graphics and presentation, so users of those EFBs are actually trusting "Joe's Basement Charting Service".   I used Avare for many years, which is a free EFB with free charts and plates.   Now I use iFly, which does require a nominal paid subscription but provides charts and plates (non-Garmin or Jepp) with that subscription.   There are other free or very low-cost EFBs that do the same.

I've been trying to figure out for a long time what value Garmin or Jepp adds to basic charts or plates that the free services don't.    This dynamic stuff is new, and I suspect the other EFBs, even the free ones, may follow before too long.

The instrument approach plates in Avare and iFly are not "Joe's." They are the FAA's. That's true of every EFB except (optionally) Pilot at this point. Even the ones in other countries are using either government plates or Jepp. They are not creating their own from the regulatory source documents. Just in case, when I refer to "regulatory source document", I'm not referring to the chart itself. Rather I'm referring to one of these, like the one for the SDL RNAV Y 3. 

Value added is in the eye of the beholder or user. If you are happy with what you have, why change? I can still remember the days when people were all excited about being able to put a PDF approach plate in a Kindle. IFly is a great EFB. It was my IFR backup for several years. IMO, Avare is fine for VFR use but I found it unsatisfactory for IFR, even for nothing more than a chart reader. I can't even imagine relying on a chart created from the source  document by avere.

Edited August 11 by midlifeflyer

[EricJ]

27 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The instrument approach plates in Avare and iFly are not "Joe's." They are the FAA's. That's true of every EFB except (optionally) Pilot at this point. Even the ones in other countries are using either government plates or Jepp. They are not creating their own from the regulatory source documents. Just in case, when I refer to "regulatory source document", I'm not referring to the chart itself. Rather I'm referring to one of these, like the one for the SDL RNAV Y 3. 

Value added is in the eye of the beholder or user. If you are happy with what you have, why change? I can still remember the days when people were all excited about being able to put a PDF approach plate in a Kindle. IFly is a great EFB. It was my IFR backup for several years. IMO, Avare is fine for VFR use but I found it unsatisfactory for IFR, even for nothing more than a chart reader. I can't even imagine relying on a chart created from the source  document by avere.

I suspect the Garmin and Jepp plates start from the FAA plates as well, so I was just saying that outfits like iFly, Avare, et al, start with the FAA plates and just adjust them for whatever their own needs are (graphic compatibility, etc.).   If there was a Joe's Basement Charting Service that's what they could do, too, which is not unusual in business, so I thought it was an appropriate comparison.

[PeteMc]

9 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

In GP, it is the plate.  Just a different design of the same source information.  The source is regulatory. The format it is placed in is not.  

I'm a little confused on your terminology, but then I don't use G Pilot.  To me the "Plate" used to be the piece of paper I pulled out of my Jepp binder and clipped to the yoke.  In ForeFlight I still have a Plates Tab and it comes with the Gov. "Plates" or I could subscribe to Jepp.  

On the Map Tab I see FF's ROUTE depiction of what is on the "Plate" and I can even have the Plate overlayed onto the Map.  But I'm confused about what you  are calling the "GP Plate" as I do not believe Garmin creates their own Approach Plates.  They use Gov or Jepp....  Unless I'm wrong, hence the question on terminology. 

 

[toto]

46 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

I'm a little confused on your terminology, but then I don't use G Pilot.  To me the "Plate" used to be the piece of paper I pulled out of my Jepp binder and clipped to the yoke.  In ForeFlight I still have a Plates Tab and it comes with the Gov. "Plates" or I could subscribe to Jepp.  

On the Map Tab I see FF's ROUTE depiction of what is on the "Plate" and I can even have the Plate overlayed onto the Map.  But I'm confused about what you  are calling the "GP Plate" as I do not believe Garmin creates their own Approach Plates.  They use Gov or Jepp....  Unless I'm wrong, hence the question on terminology. 

 

Garmin now has their own chart presentation, which does not use the NOS or Jepp format. 

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviation/garminpilot/smartcharts/

Here’s a random screenshot from my phone of what this looks like: