Can't lean my Bravo

[Patrick Horan]

I posted this on Facebook, i might aswell post is here.

Don Maxwell did comment that my upper deck hoses may have collapsed. And after looking at my engine. It does look like a metal pipe is bent. But I'll just still explain what is happening 

After many months of not flying my Bravo, (I haven't really flown it since I purchased it in January). I finally took it up on a nice cross country from PHX-SLC.

 

However, I am still have major problems of not being able to lean the plane at all when I am above 13,000 feet. I can not run ROP or LOP.

 

We borescoped cylinder, baffles look amazing, cleaned the fuel injectors.

 

The power setting isn't to to high. I'm at 30" and 22rpm

Running ROP my Cylinders WILL see 409° on cylinder #1, and 413° on cylinder #2, and 420° on cylinder #5. All while my Turbo is at 1400° and my fuel burn still at 20.

 

 

Edited October 30 by Patrick Horan

[Patrick Horan]

I found this picture online of a bravo engine and it shows that this pipe is straight. While mine is bent

First picture is the one I found online, 

Second picture is what's on my bravo

[Shadrach]

Hi Patrick, 

I think Don was likely referring to the potential for collapsed soft hoses. The shape of the pipe you have circled is likely a red herring unless it is compromised in some way.  Your numbers make no sense to me after reviewing the Bravo power chart, so I question whether your engine data is accurate. 

Per the POH at your stated MP and RPM leaned to Peak TIT should yield around 14.5gph.  How you are running CHTs that hot with a TIT of 1400° (350° rich of TIT redline) while puking an extra 5.5gph through the engine is beyond me.

[Patrick Horan]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Hi Patrick, 

I think Don was likely referring to the potential for collapsed soft hoses. The shape of the pipe you have circled is likely a red herring unless it is compromised in some way.  Your numbers make no sense to me after reviewing the Bravo power chart, so I question whether your engine data is accurate. 

Per the POH at your stated MP and RPM leaned to Peak TIT should yield around 14.5gph.  How you are running CHTs that hot with a TIT of 1400° (350° rich of TIT redline) while puking an extra 5.5gph through the engine is beyond me.

That is what I'm saying. It's really weird

[Rick Junkin]

I had a similar situation after maintenance - engine wanted to die when I leaned at altitude - and we discovered the upper deck plumbing was disconnected at the rear baffling junction.

I think this is what Don is getting at. The bends in the upper deck “cross-over” line can vary from airplane to airplane. Look for a leak somewhere in the upper deck lines, probably at the junction of the hoses and the metal lines. Maybe a crack at one of the hose clamps?

Cheers,
Rick

[Rick Junkin]

5 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

I had a similar situation after maintenance - engine wanted to die when I leaned at altitude - and we discovered the upper deck plumbing was disconnected at the rear baffling junction.

I think this is what Don is getting at. The bends in the upper deck “cross-over” line can vary from airplane to airplane. Look for a leak somewhere in the upper deck lines, probably at the junction of the hoses and the metal lines. Maybe a crack at one of the hose clamps?

Cheers,
Rick

I should have clarified that my problem was at the upper deck plumbing junction on the firewall side of the rear metal baffle. Mine was completely disconnected. It could be that yours is only finger tight and leaking if you’ve had any work done in that area.

However if this is something that just occurred after the airplane has been sitting, a crack in one of the hoses is more likely. If a leak is even indeed the problem.

[Patrick Horan]

10 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

I should have clarified that my problem was at the upper deck plumbing junction on the firewall side of the rear metal baffle. Mine was completely disconnected. It could be that yours is only finger tight and leaking if you’ve had any work done in that area.

However if this is something that just occurred after the airplane has been sitting, a crack in one of the hoses is more likely. If a leak is even indeed the problem.

This is what the plane was like immediately when I purchased the aiplane

[Shadrach]

Just now, Patrick Horan said:

This is what the plane was like immediately when I purchased the aiplane

Odd that this was not caught on pre purchase test flight.  Nevertheless, it reads like it is upper deck related.  It would not be difficult to rule out leaks.

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 

Hmm . . that looks familiar . . . I typed up that very chart on Excel years ago so I could send it off to stickers.com and get a decal made in white print for some new visors that I put on a Bravo. I must have posted it on here at some point. (I should have done a better job of spacing out lines 4 & 5 so that they lined up the same.)
Just don't ever run it at 1750, like the chart or the POH says. 
 
@Patrick Horan have you looked at the intercylinder baffles (16, 17. &18) below the cylinders and the "springs" that hold them all together?

I see on the top of your engine that #17 and #18 are there, but if the spring below is missing or more likely not tight, the air is escaping before it can be forced down over the fins to cool the cylinders

(I realize that the picture is an -A cylinder not a -B, but this picture shows it better.)

 

 

Also @Patrick Horan what was your oil temperature at cruise? In the first picture your oil cooler looks a little grungy. I wonder if it got sent out when the previous owner sent the engine off to Mattituck for rebuild.

[Shadrach]

51 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Hmm . . that looks familiar . . . I typed up that very chart on Excel years ago so I could send it off to stickers.com and get a decal made in white print for some new visors that I put on a Bravo. I must have posted it on here at some point. (I should have done a better job of spacing out lines 4 & 5 so that they lined up the same.)
Just don't ever run it at 1750, like the chart or the POH says. 
 
@Patrick Horan have you looked at the intercylinder baffles (16, 17. &18) below the cylinders and the "springs" that hold them all together?

I see on the top of your engine that #17 and #18 are there, but if the spring below is missing or more likely not tight, the air is escaping before it can be forced down over the fins to cool the cylinders

(I realize that the picture is an -A cylinder not a -B, but this picture shows it better.)

 

Yup, I poached it from another thread (unfortunately, it was not attributed to you). I could not believe the numbers that the OP posted and had to verify I wasn’t losing it.

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, Shadrach said:

Yup, I poached it from another thread (unfortunately, it was not attributed to you). I could not believe the numbers that the OP posted and had to verify I wasn’t losing it.

Anyone is welcome to poach it. . lol

[Fritz1]

hmm, you have low TIT and lots of fuel flow, the Bravo engine is very sensitive to baffle leaks, as Lance said check the metal baffles between cylinders, maybe some are missing, also check mag timing for excessive advance

[Patrick Horan]

To me, baffles seem fine. Mags were timed great aswell

Edited October 31 by Patrick Horan

[alextstone]

@Patrick Horan, Where are you located?  

[Patrick Horan]

46 minutes ago, alextstone said:

@Patrick Horan, Where are you located?  

PHX AZ

[Fritz1]

there is more than one thing going on, call Brian Kendrick in San Marco TX, 830 370 1190 he tends to figure things out that nobody else does, TIT probe may be burnt and read low, fuel flow transducer may read high, unlikely though that both are off at the same time, the upper deck air lines blow air into the turbo injectors, helps atomizing fuel, cant figure how lack of that air would cause high CHTs, fuel would have to blow back and leak out somewhere 

[N201MKTurbo]

You should fix your baffle seal, it is laying the wrong way.

[Patrick Horan]

8 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You should fix your baffle seal, it is laying the wrong way.

Which one? The blue baffles on the bottom?

[N201MKTurbo]

22 minutes ago, Patrick Horan said:

Which one? The blue baffles on the bottom?

Yes, and the ones around the alternator. They need to be up into the wind, if they are down the wind just blows them open.

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, Patrick Horan said:

To me, baffles seem fine. Mags were timed great aswell

 

The rear baffle looks good. AS has been mentioned the bottom ones in front don't. 

Can you get a picture of the underneath of the engine to see what the bottom metal intercylinder baffles look like? I see that they are there by the retainers and hooks at the top of the engine. But the "springs" that hold them together and hold them tight might  need some tweaking.

This is fixable. A lot of airplanes get worked on by well-meaning people that don't know all of the eccentricities of every engine and airframe they are working on. The Bravo has a lot of things specific just to this airplane. I second the idea of getting Brian Kendrick involved (brian@mooneysupport.net). I would type up everything you know in an e-mail and include pictures and let him think about it. If anyone can find the answer it's him. If you end up having him look at it and need transportation I can help. 

[Patrick Horan]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The rear baffle looks good. AS has been mentioned the bottom ones in front don't. 

Can you get a picture of the underneath of the engine to see what the bottom metal intercylinder baffles look like? I see that they are there by the retainers and hooks at the top of the engine. But the "springs" that hold them together and hold them tight might  need some tweaking.

This is fixable. A lot of airplanes get worked on by well-meaning people that don't know all of the eccentricities of every engine and airframe they are working on. The Bravo has a lot of things specific just to this airplane. I second the idea of getting Brian Kendrick involved (brian@mooneysupport.net). I would type up everything you know in an e-mail and include pictures and let him think about it. If anyone can find the answer it's him. If you end up having him look at it and need transportation I can help. 

Thank you, my annual is coming up and I might use him (if he has time). I'll definitely fly my plane to him

[Patrick Horan]

14 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Yes, and the ones around the alternator. They need to be up into the wind, if they are down the wind just blows them open.

I'm going to the plane today. I'm still kinda confused on how the baffles should be. I see that ones wrapped around/touching the alternator. 

Anyone have a picture?

[N201MKTurbo]

28 minutes ago, Patrick Horan said:

I'm going to the plane today. I'm still kinda confused on how the baffles should be. I see that ones wrapped around/touching the alternator. 

Anyone have a picture?

I’m a little confused by your picture too. Is it from inside or outside of the cowl?

[Rick Junkin]

Here is the same photo from my airplane, with another one from outside the right intake for perspective.

The OP’s baffles are oriented correctly.

[Patrick Horan]

Looks like this baffle is mounted a little bit incorrectly