Propellers for 1980 m20J

[rturbett]

I'm considering a new prop for my 1980 m20J

Are there any options to consider within the McCauly 2 blade family, or just stock replacement?

any source you can recommend to get further educated on this? (i'm google-smart)

Thanks,

Rob

[Slick Nick]

I have seen some "Q-Tip" props before, the ones that look like they're bent from a prop strike. Although, I can't recall if they were J or K models. But for sure 2 blade. Not sure if that helps you, but I know some different options are out there.

[OR75]

McCauleys: C212 or C214 

Hartzel  scimitar prop 2 blades 

 

 

[KSMooniac]

You should have the C214, which is a much better prop than the C212 that came on the 77's like mine.  I electively upgraded to the MT scimitar 3-blade composite prop and really like it.  I would restrict your shopping to the C214 that you already have, the MT, or 2-blade Hartzell Top Prop.  All of the metal 3-blade props are downgrades in all facets... weight, vibration, performance, and cost.  Hartzell is also working on a 2-blade composite Top Prop that would be the best of all worlds, but I'm not sure if it is STC'd yet or even certified as they were pursuing the RV market first.  That would be a tempting change for me from the MT, depending on cost and performance.  I'm not optimistic about cost since a private equity firm acquired Hartzell and everything in their tent has gotten dramatically more expensive and less available, though.

[Slick Nick]

19 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

You should have the C214, which is a much better prop than the C212 that came on the 77's like mine.  I electively upgraded to the MT scimitar 3-blade composite prop and really like it.  I would restrict your shopping to the C214 that you already have, the MT, or 2-blade Hartzell Top Prop.  All of the metal 3-blade props are downgrades in all facets... weight, vibration, performance, and cost.  Hartzell is also working on a 2-blade composite Top Prop that would be the best of all worlds, but I'm not sure if it is STC'd yet or even certified as they were pursuing the RV market first.  That would be a tempting change for me from the MT, depending on cost and performance.  I'm not optimistic about cost since a private equity firm acquired Hartzell and everything in their tent has gotten dramatically more expensive and less available, though.

Did the MT remove the RPM zone restriction? What changes did you notice for climb performance, noise, top speed, etc?

[Will.iam]

21 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

You should have the C214, which is a much better prop than the C212 that came on the 77's like mine.  I electively upgraded to the MT scimitar 3-blade composite prop and really like it.  I would restrict your shopping to the C214 that you already have, the MT, or 2-blade Hartzell Top Prop.  All of the metal 3-blade props are downgrades in all facets... weight, vibration, performance, and cost.  Hartzell is also working on a 2-blade composite Top Prop that would be the best of all worlds, but I'm not sure if it is STC'd yet or even certified as they were pursuing the RV market first.  That would be a tempting change for me from the MT, depending on cost and performance.  I'm not optimistic about cost since a private equity firm acquired Hartzell and everything in their tent has gotten dramatically more expensive and less available, though.

Where did you get your MT-prop from/installed?

[KSMooniac]

Yes, the MT removed the yellow zone, at least on the J.  I presume it would be similar for the E/F with the -A1A engine as well, but I'm not certain.  

I ordered mine at OSH in 2010 directly from MT, and took delivery in November at my local distributor (Yingling in Wichita).  Some dealers/distributors might maintain a small inventory, but expect an order and waiting period.  I opted for custom paint and a "polished" spinner as well.  I don't know if the shiny spinner is an option these days...it is just a plastic-like coating common to automobile trim.  

Performance-wise, takeoff acceleration and climb are noticeably better, and this is really evident in formation takeoffs.  Cruise is similar to my old C212 McCaulley, maybe a little bit faster (1-2 knots).  I have everything balanced extremely well (engine and prop) so my setup feels like a sewing machine, and that reduces wear and tear on components and increases comfort for passengers so I really like that improvement as well.  It is also 12 lbs lighter than the C212 prop and spinner, which is very helpful on a J to move the CG aft.  One part of my decision to upgrade at that time was to remove that forward weight in anticipation of adding a turbo-normalizer kit so that my total weight gain would be minimized.  I still haven't added that TN, but one of these years I still expect to do it... and I think an MT spinner at a lower RPM (say 2300) with 30" MP all the time will be awesome.  I believe MT is optimized for lower RPMS due to the noise sensitivity in Europe, so running it there with more MP is a great combo for efficiency and speed.

If you want the absolute fastest cruise, I think the current winner is the 2-blade Hartzell Top Prop.  But Hartzell comes with a history of cracking spinners, and nasty AD's when their sales get slow, followed by incentives to buy new props or hubs.  It will be interesting to see what happens with them under a private equity overlord. 

I haven't owned a C214 McCaulley but believe it to be a good prop.  If I had one, I would likely choose to keep running it until it was no longer airworthy.  

[Will.iam]

3 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I haven't owned a C214 McCaulley but believe it to be a good prop.  If I had one, I would likely choose to keep running it until it was no longer airworthy.  

Ack! I was all ready to go forward until I read your last line as I do have the C214 and it’s a polished prop and spinner looks fantastic but having said that I live on a short 2600ft field with no real good options for engine out on takeoff until 900ft for the impossible turn. (South is a soccer field and north is a lake with residential all around) so getting airborn quickly and climbing to 900ft with the minimum amount of time exposed to that tragic event is most preferable. Even with an inflatable door seal that does tremendously lower the wind noise I can still hear the beats of the blades especially low RPM. If my cruise can stay the same I will still most likely go the MT route cursing it every time I have to drop the cowl for an oil change or maintenance. I’m hearing 9 month lead time for the K version which is apparently different prop than the J version from MT. 

[KSMooniac]

In your case then I would heartily encourage the MT option.  And yes, the K version is different... different hub for the TCM engine and I believe the blades are slightly different and optimized for higher altitude cruise than the J version, but very similar overall.  And yes, removing the cowl is trickier with 3 (or 4!) blades.  I think you'll love having one on your 252...

There is an ad on barnstormers from 9/19 claiming immediate delivery for a K prop from MT USA in FL.

[Will.iam]

Thanks for the info. 

[kortopates]

Ack! I was all ready to go forward until I read your last line as I do have the C214 and it’s a polished prop and spinner looks fantastic but having said that I live on a short 2600ft field with no real good options for engine out on takeoff until 900ft for the impossible turn. (South is a soccer field and north is a lake with residential all around) so getting airborn quickly and climbing to 900ft with the minimum amount of time exposed to that tragic event is most preferable. Even with an inflatable door seal that does tremendously lower the wind noise I can still hear the beats of the blades especially low RPM. If my cruise can stay the same I will still most likely go the MT route cursing it every time I have to drop the cowl for an oil change or maintenance. I’m hearing 9 month lead time for the K version which is apparently different prop than the J version from MT. 

Plus i assume you’ll need the prop de-ice added (although you did mention polished prop). You’ll notice much improved climb including a steeper pitch attitude at Vx.

i had to make “boots” to fit over the 2 of the blades. I used silicone baffling material. The boots protect the prop when i am R&Ring the lower cowling. i don’t yet have that job down to a one person operation like i had with the old 2 blade prop.


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[OR75]

55 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Ack! I was all ready to go forward until I read your last line as I do have the C214 and it’s a polished prop and spinner looks fantastic but having said that I live on a short 2600ft field with no real good options for engine out on takeoff until 900ft for the impossible turn. (South is a soccer field and north is a lake with residential all around) so getting airborn quickly and climbing to 900ft with the minimum amount of time exposed to that tragic event is most preferable. Even with an inflatable door seal that does tremendously lower the wind noise I can still hear the beats of the blades especially low RPM. If my cruise can stay the same I will still most likely go the MT route cursing it every time I have to drop the cowl for an oil change or maintenance. I’m hearing 9 month lead time for the K version which is apparently different prop than the J version from MT. 

another option you may keep an eye one:

if you get the Hartzel scimitar , then when comes engine overhaul , you can go the IO-390 route and get 10 more HP. should help the climb perf and no loss in cruising speed 

[KSMooniac]

23 minutes ago, OR75 said:

another option you may keep an eye one:

if you get the Hartzel scimitar , then when comes engine overhaul , you can go the IO-390 route and get 10 more HP. should help the climb perf and no loss in cruising speed 

That's not available/applicable for his K model with the Continental TSIO-360 with 210 hp.  He could upgrade to the Encore configuration and 220 hp though. 

 

[Will.iam]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Plus i assume you’ll need the prop de-ice added (although you did mention polished prop). You’ll notice much improved climb including a steeper pitch attitude at Vx.

i had to make “boots” to fit over the 2 of the blades. I used silicone baffling material. The boots protect the prop when i am R&Ring the lower cowling. i don’t yet have that job down to a one person operation like i had with the old 2 blade prop.


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Ah you are confirming my fear of cowl removal. Yes my prop did have the de-ice but was removed when polished. I find it rather dumb to have no de-ice wings or tail but they put it on the prop probably because back then there was more allowance / wiggle room on flying into icing. Now a days unless you have fiki you have to avoid all icing even forecasted so I don’t see the benefit of having a de-iced prop, course living in the south helps mitigate ice issues the most and if it cost me a few knots, I’d rather lose the dispatch capability than have the protection. Did you get the nickel plated leading edge or stainless steel option? Will have to pick your brain and check out your prop when you get to the PPP at alliance next week! 

[philiplane]

Friends don't let friends buy MT props. 

Stick with a two blade for speed, light weight, and durability. Hartzell is best in that regard. 

 

[Will.iam]

13 hours ago, philiplane said:

Friends don't let friends buy MT props. 

Stick with a two blade for speed, light weight, and durability. Hartzell is best in that regard. 

 

Hartzell does not have a 2 blade option for the M20K so unfortunately for my airframe not the best. 

[A64Pilot]

On 10/2/2024 at 8:11 PM, philiplane said:

Friends don't let friends buy MT props. 

Stick with a two blade for speed, light weight, and durability. Hartzell is best in that regard. 

 

I concur with your first statement unless price is the driving issue. I don’t know now but they used to be a good value.

I love the old Hartzell as I had several contacts there, not so sure now though, gut says Hartzell is different now, but that’s not from experience.

In particular the Hartzell composites are a “true” composite and great props, but at the price they cost they had better be

While I have not myself tested any props on my aircraft, it’s my understanding from those that have that for cruise speed, nothing yet beats the Mac the factory put on the later J’s, and cruise speed is usually what most of us are after.

It’s tough from what I have seen to significantly “improve” a J. You can spend a bunch of money trying though and it’s a normal human trait that you convince yourself after spending a lot of money that what you have is much better, when sometimes it’s not much difference.

[Will.iam]

6 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I concur with your first statement unless price is the driving issue. I don’t know now but they used to be a good value.

I love the old Hartzell as I had several contacts there, not so sure now though, gut says Hartzell is different now, but that’s not from experience.

In particular the Hartzell composites are a “true” composite and great props, but at the price they cost they had better be

While I have not myself tested any props on my aircraft, it’s my understanding from those that have that for cruise speed, nothing yet beats the Mac the factory put on the later J’s, and cruise speed is usually what most of us are after.

It’s tough from what I have seen to significantly “improve” a J. You can spend a bunch of money trying though and it’s a normal human trait that you convince yourself after spending a lot of money that what you have is much better, when sometimes it’s not much difference.

True. My motivation is more for the acceleration and climb to the first 1000ft so that I minimize the amount of time I’m in that zone if i have an engine failure. If i could just hold onto the top speed i have i’d be ecstatic but even losing a knot or 2 is for me an acceptable trade for getting into and out of my shorter runway at home field. 11lbs lighter also helps and a lower noise level would be a bonus and help offset the cursing at oil change cowl removal. 

[Slick Nick]

15 hours ago, Will.iam said:

True. My motivation is more for the acceleration and climb to the first 1000ft so that I minimize the amount of time I’m in that zone if i have an engine failure. If i could just hold onto the top speed i have i’d be ecstatic but even losing a knot or 2 is for me an acceptable trade for getting into and out of my shorter runway at home field. 11lbs lighter also helps and a lower noise level would be a bonus and help offset the cursing at oil change cowl removal. 

Thats a pretty valid reason to go with a 3 blade in my opinion. Thats why they make different props, to suit different use cases. 

[Pinecone]

On 10/2/2024 at 4:43 PM, KSMooniac said:

In your case then I would heartily encourage the MT option.  And yes, the K version is different... different hub for the TCM engine and I believe the blades are slightly different and optimized for higher altitude cruise than the J version, but very similar overall.  And yes, removing the cowl is trickier with 3 (or 4!) blades.  I think you'll love having one on your 252...

There is an ad on barnstormers from 9/19 claiming immediate delivery for a K prop from MT USA in FL.

Any specifics on performance gains?

Ad is still up:

[kortopates]

Better climb and no cruise loss.

it’s normally several months to get it, but i still had to wait for them to get the de-ice boots and install them. the first shipment from germany got lost!


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[kortopates]

MT props no longer have to go back to MT in FL for maintenance, there are many prop shops now that work on them including my favorite prop shop in CA, American Propeller.

they don’t give a choice of leading edge on the J&K props, just stainless.


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[Will.iam]

14 hours ago, kortopates said:

MT props no longer have to go back to MT in FL for maintenance, there are many prop shops now that work on them including my favorite prop shop in CA, American Propeller.

they don’t give a choice of leading edge on the J&K props, just stainless.


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The 3 blade prop that desoto in Fl has is claiming the leading edge is nickel. Either he is mistaken or maybe they have upgraded since then. I would like to think that’s why the price is now 18,700

[KSMooniac]

I believe they switched to nickel some years ago.  Mine (2010 production) is stainless and my only complaint was the way they did the paint and filler... they put filler on behind the stainless cuff, and then brought the paint up on to the stainless and very close to the leading edge.  That left an exposed paint edge to the airstream, and it eroded badly on my first trip through rain.  It is hard to bond anything to stainless steel, so I thought that was a poor design choice and I didn't mind seeing "lots" of stainless versus more paint.  After a failed repaint, they finally stopped the paint further back on the second attempt and it has held up much better.  I wonder if paint sticks to nickel any better?  I'm not sure why they changed but presume there was a reason.

[KSMooniac]

Forgot to mention that McFarlane is an MT dealer/distributor and a great company.  They make some great engine control cables for Mooneys and support the Caravan, so if you don't have a vendor already then give them a call.