Looking for a J-bar F model

[Paul Thomas]

43 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Attached are 3 photos of what our airplane looks like with the two "cheek" side panels and the top cowling removed.

The cheek panels are removed first and re-installed last.  They're held on with 14, quarter-turn fasteners, that take about 60 seconds per side to fasten/un-fasten.  The panels themselves are about 2' x 3' and weigh just a few pounds, it's a trivial, 1-man job to R&R them.

The top cowl is removed after the cheek panels are off, and reinstalled before the cheek panels are put back in place.  It's held in place by 5, quarter-turn fasteners; and 8, 10-32 machine screws.  It takes about 60 seconds to remove assuming you have an electric screwdriver.  It takes slightly longer to re-install, but only because it takes a few seconds to get it aligned on all four corners before fastening the screws.

As I said, we essentially never remove the lower cowl.  It's certainly not necessary to do so for an oil change.

All in all, it's a really nice design for maintenance, second only to hinged cowls like on certain Cherokee and Bonanza models.  The tradeoff vs. the M20J cowl is that it costs you about 7 knots, and a certain amount of ramp appeal.

 

 

 

The access you get is AMAZING! I would love that from a maintenance aspect.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

Attached are 3 photos of what our airplane looks like with the two "cheek" side panels and the top cowling removed.

The cheek panels are removed first and re-installed last.  They're held on with 14, quarter-turn fasteners, that take about 60 seconds per side to fasten/un-fasten.  The panels themselves are about 2' x 3' and weigh just a few pounds, it's a trivial, 1-man job to R&R them.

The top cowl is removed after the cheek panels are off, and reinstalled before the cheek panels are put back in place.  It's held in place by 5, quarter-turn fasteners; and 8, 10-32 machine screws.  It takes about 60 seconds to remove assuming you have an electric screwdriver.  It takes slightly longer to re-install, but only because it takes a few seconds to get it aligned on all four corners before fastening the screws.

As I said, we essentially never remove the lower cowl.  It's certainly not necessary to do so for an oil change.

All in all, it's a really nice design for maintenance, second only to hinged cowls like on certain Cherokee and Bonanza models.  The tradeoff vs. the M20J cowl is that it costs you about 7 knots, and a certain amount of ramp appeal.

Not having the side braces that run from firewall to the lower rail assemblies probably makes some tasks easier. Do you know which year they were discontinued?

[Vance Harral]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Not having the side braces that run from firewall to the lower rail assemblies probably makes some tasks easier. Do you know which year they were discontinued?

IPC MAN-203 for the 65-67 models shows the brace, whereas MAN-205 for the 68-76 models does not.  So looks like they were deleted with the 1968 model year, though serial number is a better reference than "model year".

Many folks aren't aware of the evolution of the cowling in the C/D/E/F models across the years.  The stringers of the lower cowl in our airplane actually still have the mounting holes for the side braces, and I had one mechanic ask me where the "missing" side braces were, until I showed him the IPC applicable to our airframe.

[Vance Harral]

3 hours ago, Paul Thomas said:

The access you get is AMAZING! I would love that from a maintenance aspect.

Aluminum cowls are also considerably less prone to cracking than fiberglass ones. 

But they're not immune from cracking, and again, that more unwieldy cowl on the J model is also better for speed, cooling, and ramp appeal.  Everything's a tradeoff.

[M Terry]

There is a F model with the J bar for sale at KEDU: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/avo/d/davis-mooney-m20f/7781591294.html

[bigmo]

1 hour ago, M Terry said:

There is a F model with the J bar for sale at KEDU: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/avo/d/davis-mooney-m20f/7781591294.html

With a little effort and wing work - that’s a steal!

[Zorro]

Hey guys, I appreciate all the info and general opinion when it comes to the speed mods for an F model. If you all are still following this can you give me your opinion on electric gear versus the J-bar? I know the J-bar is the only system the FAA approved without the need for redundancy, however, I’m wondering if I should be treating this in the same way as the speed mods? Should a J-bar be a deal breaker?

Recently I heard that most gear up landings are due to the pilot failing to remember to put down their gear, not necessarily due to the gear motor failing. All in all an electric system isn’t all that bad. What’s your opinion?

[RescueMunchkin]

I was like you, looking for a J bar F with good upgrades.  Ended up getting an F with electric gear.  Still wish I had the J Bar but the electric gear works nicely, extending and retracting in about 1 second.  My concern is the gears wearing out, and I don't know if the emergency gear extension mechanism will still function if that's the issue preventing extension.

[bigmo]

Not to get sidetracked, but a pro tip on the cowl removal is grab an adjustable mechanics stool or creeper. With my last aircraft, I was laying on the ground trying to decide where by legs we’re going to go when I looked over and noticed my creeper with a huge height range. Slides under, expands to support the weight. Easy peasy.

[Zorro]

1 hour ago, RescueMunchkin said:

I was like you, looking for a J bar F with good upgrades.  Ended up getting an F with electric gear.  Still wish I had the J Bar but the electric gear works nicely, extending and retracting in about 1 second.  My concern is the gears wearing out, and I don't know if the emergency gear extension mechanism will still function if that's the issue preventing extension.

Yeah, that’s kind of what I’ve been thinking about. But I didn’t know if I was the only one. Thanks for that lol.

[M20F-1968]

The F model "with all the J model speed mods" is truly a J.  I have a 1968 F, Johnson Bar, Hydraulic flaps, long range tanks, turbo normalized, speed brakes, etc. etc....

10,000 ft, 100 ROP, 75% power = 160kts

10,000 ft, 100 ROP, everything forward = 168 kts

17,000 ft, 100 ROM. 75% power = 175 - ? 180 kts

Take a look at my profile....  

The biggest speed change is with the 201 windshield and cowling.  But it a lot of work.

You will not come close to what you are looking for spending $100,000 is this market.  I suspect you would be hard pressed to find a very nice turn key E or F for that amount.

John Breda

 

 

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, Zorro said:

Hey guys, I appreciate all the info and general opinion when it comes to the speed mods for an F model. If you all are still following this can you give me your opinion on electric gear versus the J-bar? I know the J-bar is the only system the FAA approved without the need for redundancy, however, I’m wondering if I should be treating this in the same way as the speed mods? Should a J-bar be a deal breaker?

Recently I heard that most gear up landings are due to the pilot failing to remember to put down their gear, not necessarily due to the gear motor failing. All in all an electric system isn’t all that bad. What’s your opinion?

I'm another F owner that really wanted a "J" bar but ended up with electric gear (the one I bought checked all the other boxes and was priced right).  After nearly 7 years of ownership I've learned to trust it  I make sure to perform the gear box maintenance every 100 and 200 hours per the SB.  I think pretty much every other make and model of RG aircraft have powered landing gear...every time I see the $hit show of a Cessna single retracting its gear I breathe a sigh of relief I have Mooney electric gear!

So, no, don't make electric gear a deal breaker, IMHO.

[Zorro]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

I'm another F owner that really wanted a "J" bar but ended up with electric gear (the one I bought checked all the other boxes and was priced ritght).  After nearly 7 years of ownership I've learned to trust it  I make sure to perform the gear box maintenance every 100 and 200 hours per the SB.  I think pretty much every other make and model of RG aircraft have powered landing gear...every time I see the $hit show of a Cessna single retracting its gear I breath a sigh of relief I have Mooney electric gear!

So, no, don't make electric gear a deal breaker, IMHO.

There are a couple nice F models that I’m looking at that have electric gear. Maybe it’s time to switch up my thinking. With all the electric gear airplanes out there, it can’t be all bad lol. 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

There are a couple nice F models that I’m looking at that have electric gear. Maybe it’s time to switch up my thinking. With all the electric gear airplanes out there, it can’t be all bad lol. 

I was the same, pretty hard over about having manual gear (I had north of 100 hours in a rental M20B and loved the "J" bar).  However, by the time I saw 'my' Mooney I had spent an embarrassingly long time searching and had looked at well over a dozen aircraft; basically, I knew when I saw 'mine' it was the one...and I kind of went "electric gear?"...followed by, "Oh, well!"...and made an offer on the spot!

[Zorro]

How hard is it to source parts for your planes? I heard that the parts pool is rapidly becoming scarce. A shop near me just explained how some mooneys they’ve seen have had to sit for parts a lengthy amount of time.

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, Zorro said:

Hey guys, I appreciate all the info and general opinion when it comes to the speed mods for an F model. If you all are still following this can you give me your opinion on electric gear versus the J-bar? I know the J-bar is the only system the FAA approved without the need for redundancy, however, I’m wondering if I should be treating this in the same way as the speed mods? Should a J-bar be a deal breaker?

Recently I heard that most gear up landings are due to the pilot failing to remember to put down their gear, not necessarily due to the gear motor failing. All in all an electric system isn’t all that bad. What’s your opinion?

I think it is easier to go electric if you haven’t spent a lot of time in a manual gear aircraft.  Having owned and maintained a manual gear F for 20 years, it’s likely a bigger deal to me.
 

For me it’s not just the inherent reliability of the system, it’s also the tactile feedback in every swing that tells me the gear is functioning as it should. I enjoy the same sensation with the manual wing and cowl flaps. Every inch of pump handle movement translates into a pitch change as if there were a jack under the tail. The cable operated cowl flaps are simple and easy to operate. Any binding in the system would be immediately obvious. Overtime one develops a sense of how these system should feel. It gives me great confidence in the systems to feel their smooth operation on every flight.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

How hard is it to source parts for your planes? I heard that the parts pool is rapidly becoming scarce. A shop near me just explained how some mooneys they’ve seen have had to sit for parts a lengthy amount of time.

The intake boot is a challenge for the vintage aircraft. They can be had but are not made in large quantities and sometimes require a lot of searching to find a source.
 

Gear up and down locks have also been a challenge. The locks would be pretty easy to have fabricated at a local machine shop with a CNC machine. I kept my old blocks so that I can use them as a template for OPP if needed in the future.  

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Zorro said:

How hard is it to source parts for your planes? I heard that the parts pool is rapidly becoming scarce. A shop near me just explained how some mooneys they’ve seen have had to sit for parts a lengthy amount of time.

In nearly 7 years of ownership I've not had any sourcing issues (knock on wood).  I lucked into a brand new intake boot last year as TopGun had one in stock and I jumped on it.  I've had no problem with shock disks (other than cost!), engine mounts, engine stuff, ....most parts are pretty standard.  Salvage yards have all kinds of airframe parts.  I will say I do live in fear of the electric gear box!  So your desire for "J" bar gear is understandable from that point of view!  It seems the only option at this point is to find a used one for BIG $$$ and hope it still has life left in it!  Another reason I'm meticulous on greasing and inspecting mine!

[Zorro]

Hey guys, are there any hangups on aftermarket turbos? How do you all feel about them?

[M20F-1968]

On 9/20/2024 at 8:35 PM, Zorro said:

Hey guys, are there any hangups on aftermarket turbos? How do you all feel about them?

The parts are available.  Just see that you have back-up spare parts on the shelf.

John Breda

[Will.iam]

On 9/19/2024 at 3:37 PM, M20F-1968 said:

The F model "with all the J model speed mods" is truly a J.  I have a 1968 F, Johnson Bar, Hydraulic flaps, long range tanks, turbo normalized, speed brakes, etc. etc....

10,000 ft, 100 ROP, 75% power = 160kts

10,000 ft, 100 ROP, everything forward = 168 kts

17,000 ft, 100 ROM. 75% power = 175 - ? 180 kts

Take a look at my profile....  

The biggest speed change is with the 201 windshield and cowling.  But it a lot of work.

You will not come close to what you are looking for spending $100,000 is this market.  I suspect you would be hard pressed to find a very nice turn key E or F for that amount.

John Breda

 

 

A 201 windshield and cowling a bigger speed mod increase than the turbo normalizer? Color me impressed. 

[Peter T]

On 9/10/2024 at 10:42 AM, Paul Thomas said:

I'm shocked by this. I'm going to have to look at the cowl on the F model.

I remove my J cowl regularly and wish I could do it by myself instead of dragging my wife to the airport. I've only owned the airplane since April but it's come off for oil change, baffle repair, inspection, cleaning, to move the exhaust slightly as it was hitting the cowl flaps,  and I'm sure I'm forgetting other reasons to have it off. I like getting a good look at the engine. I've caught a couple of things firewall forward that I would like to improve on before next annual by having the cowl off. If I had any wish, it is that it came off easier and was a one man job.

 

[Peter T]

Removing the lower cowl by yourself is not difficult. After removing the top cowl, secure a bungy cord through a camloc opening on each side of the lower cowl to the top of the engine. Undo all fasteners including cowl flaps. Slide a height adjustable office chair (no arm rests) under the cowl and loosen, then remove, the bungies, allowing the cowl to rest on the chair. Carefull to clear the prop etc, pull the chair and cowl out from under the airplane. Do this in the reverse order to re-install.

[M20F-1968]

On 9/29/2024 at 10:49 AM, Peter T said:

 

You do not have to remove the bottom cowling to change oil.  Install a quick-release oil drain, and reach up inside the L cowl flap with a hose, slide it onto the quick drain, push up, 1/4 turn, and drain the oil.

John Breda