Prebuy / Logbook Help Needed

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, FADEC said:

From what the shop said, the removal, Overhaul and reinstall write up has the wrong SN, so they would consider that work null and void.

 

6 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It doesn't really matter what the shop thinks.   The owner is responsible for the record keeping, so what the owners say goes as long as no regs are being broken.   As previously mentioned, typical maintenance records are not required to be kept for more than a year.   IMHO the shop would be taking more risks by "correcting" a previous entry than just letting it go.   If they do "correct" it, they should sign that correction and take responsibility for it, which you shouldn't let them do imho, because then they'll have more leverage.    It sounds to me like they may just be hunting for things to spend time on to charge somebody, as it doesn't seem to have much basis in regulatory requirement.   If it wasn't a record that they made, and it's obvious what the correct disposition is (it's not the correct S/N), I'm struggling to see why they'd care.

You may say that you are struggling to see why anyone would care, but if @FADEC buys this plane and subsequently wants to sell it before he overhauls the current Lycoming then all the same questions will come up again with a potential buyer.

 

[EricJ]

17 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

You may say that you are struggling to see why anyone would care, but if @FADEC buys this plane and subsequently wants to sell it before he overhauls the current Lycoming then all the same questions will come up again with a potential buyer.

I'm struggling to see why the shop would care.   A buyer can make an issue out of anything they want, whether it makes sense or not, if they think they can use it to negotiate a lower price.   In this case the buyer may elect to do that.  This buyer then has the option to deal with the records however they see fit after the fact.

[1980Mooney]

9 hours ago, FADEC said:

I am looking for some help on a small administrative issue that has been encountered with buying my first airplane.  If anyone has the following Serial number (L-19209-51A) IO-360-A3B6D installed in their M20J, could you reach out to me? 

Here is the issue during the pre-buy, it was noticed that the most recent engine logbook’s cover page has the wrong engine Serial number (L-19209-51A) listed.  There are only two entries listed in this logbook, the first is dated 9-5-2020 and has the correct installed serial number RL-3967-51E, the second and last entry which is a field overhaul has the incorrect serial number.   

The shop where the airplane is currently at has reached out to Lycoming and verified that both Serial Numbers belong to IO-360-A3B6D engines.  Unfortunately, the A&P / IA who made both entries passed away.  The current shop is trying to find a way to prove that the entry was made in error before crossing threw the incorrect SN and writing the correct SN. 

 

2 hours ago, FADEC said:

Yes SN on the engine data plate match the SN of the first Engine Logbook, and the first entry of the 2nd engine logbook.

As noted above when you search RL-3967-51E you find that it is a Lycoming Factory Rebuild that was shipped in 2010.   

You did not provide specifics on year/model plane but if it got a factory rebuild engine in 2010 that is probably the second engine in that plane.  I know when Rocket Engineering removed my Lycoming and installed a Factory Rebuild Continental, that the original Engine Logbook went with the traded in engine.   When I got the Rebuild Continental, I also got a new Engine Logbook and the original Lycoming Logbook with all the history of that engine was gone.

You say there are 2 engine logbooks. Engine book #1 (really the plane's second engine) has the correct Serial Number RL-3967-51E.  And you say Engine book #2 starts off with that same number.  

First of all, your Aircraft Airframe Logbook should document that the original engine was removed and the Factory Rebuilt engine (RL-3967-51E) was installed in 2010. (new engine mounts, etc)

Your Aircraft Airframe Logbook should also show that RL-3967-51 was removed in 2020 in order to conduct the Field OH and then replaced (new engine mounts, etc).  You point out that he Engine Logbook #2 shows the work done on the engine (Field OH) but notes the wrong engine serial number.  But does the Aircraft Airframe Logbook also show the wrong engine number on the entry where it was replaced after the Field OH?  Or does it show that RL-3967-51E was replaced?  

Edited July 17, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I'm struggling to see why the shop would care.   A buyer can make an issue out of anything they want, whether it makes sense or not, if they think they can use it to negotiate a lower price.   In this case the buyer may elect to do that.  This buyer then has the option to deal with the records however they see fit after the fact.

I think he’s paying them for a pre-buy.

I think with them saying that without paperwork they say they would consider the work invalid is only them advising him on the current condition of the aircraft records wise. 

I don’t think they are after anything, he’s paying them to render their opinion of the aircraft he’s considering purchasing and they are doing so.

If I’m right and I admit I’m speculating, they are doing a good job, a great many wouldn’t have caught the serial number mismatch.

While I don’t think it affects airworthiness, I think it could have a real effect on value of the airplane.

[Jim Peace]

I would just have the engine removed and replaced with factory new and be sure the logbook is correct this time.....

[Jim Peace]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

A typical example of the screw ups I see in so many US log books, sorry but log books seem a mystery to far too many maintainers.

just in the logbooks?  you are being to kind here.....

[FADEC]

All,

 

Thanks for the input and feedback.  Yes there is additional paperwork for O/H components, Counterweights, Idler Gear, Gear, Crankshaft, connecting rods, crankcase, some items do list their individual SN but nothing mentions the engine SN.  Unfortunately the airframe logbook does mention the reinstallation of engine but no SN is present.  I 100% believe that this is just a admin error, I'm not trying to find leverage over the seller, or make mountains out of mole hills.  Engine hours have a direct effect on the A/C value, and the bank does care about that.  My hope was that someone would have recognized their engine SN then the shop the A/C is at could in good faith correct the logbook with a detailed entry etc.  I am committed to this airplane the seller is a stand up gentleman and has been a pleasure to work with, was looking for an out of the box solution to a paperwork problem.

 

Andy

[A64Pilot]

I think if you want to buy the airplane I’d have the seller make an entry attesting that the engine overhauled is the one that’s in the airplane.

Or honestly maybe just lining out and correcting the serial number in the logbook would raise the fewest questions down the road. 

I’d have him do it though, I wouldn’t and I’d go as far as asking for a signed written statement that he did. I wouldn’t put that in the logbook but I’d keep it.

If I were in his shoes I wouldn’t mind at all, he has to be more worried than you are because he’s selling.

‘But this mole hill does have I believe the potential to be a mountain 

Edited July 18, 2023 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

If you have the supporting paperwork, look for the receipt and 8130 for the crankcase. It will certainly have the engine serial number on it. It would be pretty strange to overhaul a case without doing the whole engine. Even though I have before with a cracked case.

[FADEC]

Figured I would post an update.   The “wrong” serial number was actually the serial number of the engine the plane was born with.  It was removed in 2010 for a factory reman ( the serial number currently on the plane).  So mistake makes 100% sense now, I closed on the plane on Monday got my insurance required training complete she is now sitting up in the upstate of South Carolina  with me. 
 

Andy