Best Shops for TSIO 360LB

[Al Matt]

Hi all, we had a leak in our oil system which is now driving a requirement to tear down and potentially overhaul the engine (TSIO 360 LB). We are sourcing quotes from the standard / household names, but I am curious if there is a preferred engine shop(s) within this knowledgeable group. I really appreciate any thoughts. 

Best,

Al Matt

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard AI Matt.

See if we can clean up your request?

1) You have an oil leak…

2) You have somewhat discovered where the leak is…

3) How are you defining the ‘oil system’?

4) Often, oil pumps are in the accessory case… which can be a pain… but not require or lead to an engine OH…

Are you looking for a Mooney mechanic with Continental experience?

Or looking for a Continental mechanic with Mooney experience?

We can help sharing info about mechanics in your area…

Or shops around the country for working on your engine…

 

Sounds like you are getting ready to remove and OH the engine already…?

want to share some pics?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[PeteMc]

The TSIO360-LB I think is a pretty straight forward engine, so most reputable shops should be able to help you with the engine.  If you have some real Mooney specific issues, then I certainly head to a Mooney Shop.  And are you sure it's a full tear down?  Did this recommendation come from a reputable shop that just can't do the tear down? 

If you're not looking to do an overhaul, then might I suggest a second opinion from a Mooney Service Cntr.  Air Mods and Repair is a short hop for you over to Trenton-Robinsville, NJ (N87) and it might be worth the time to see if they agree a full tear down really is required and if they have the time in the schedule to do it for you.  (Again, this is if you're just looking to do the oil repair and not a reman.)  Dave Mathiesen is the owner there 609-259-2400.  He was away for a week or so but I believe he's back now.

Give a holler if  you do end up leaving your plane there and need a ride back, downside of N87 is that it helps to know other people that go to Dave so you usually find a ride there or back as needed.   Guessing you fly out of HPH?  I'm at FRG.

 

[Al Matt]

6 hours ago, Al Matt said:

Hi all, we had a leak in our oil system which is now driving a requirement to tear down and potentially overhaul the engine (TSIO 360 LB). We are sourcing quotes from the standard / household names, but I am curious if there is a preferred engine shop(s) within this knowledgeable group. I really appreciate any thoughts. 

Best,

Al Matt

 

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard AI Matt.

See if we can clean up your request?

1) You have an oil leak…

2) You have somewhat discovered where the leak is…

3) How are you defining the ‘oil system’?

4) Often, oil pumps are in the accessory case… which can be a pain… but not require or lead to an engine OH…

Are you looking for a Mooney mechanic with Continental experience?

Or looking for a Continental mechanic with Mooney experience?

We can help sharing info about mechanics in your area…

Or shops around the country for working on your engine…

 

Sounds like you are getting ready to remove and OH the engine already…?

want to share some pics?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks for the response. Will try to make a long sad story somewhat short.......been having temperature issues (which are of course common for this engine). Specifically # 5 CHT is running super hot and # 6 CHT is running cold. In cruise we have to fly with the cowl flaps in trail or # 5 CHT will blow through 400 degrees. However, with the cowl flaps in trail, #6 is constantly dipping below 250 degrees. Been looking at the baffling and working on other tweaks with our local mechanic.

About a month ago, we started burning an excessive amount of oil (almost a qt an hour). The issue seemed to subside, but last week we did a compression test with our local mechanic and 2 x cylinders were in the 50s. Thus the engine had some issues. Side note - but related - since the plane came out of annual last spring, the oil pressure gauge has been super high on start-up. Super high = pegged to the far right. On the first start out of annual, I shut down within 1 minute and asked the mechanic to look at it. They said it was ok and it always settled back into the middle green after a few minutes.

Last weekend, my partner in the plane took it to Maryland. In the pre-flight the oil was at 6.25qts (which is good and again seemed to suggest the excessive oil burning issue had subsided). He started up and oil pressure was pegged at zero. He assumed this was the gauge acting up again as he had just confirmed the engine had plenty of oil. The engine ran 4-5 minutes. The oil pressure never came up. He shut it down to take a look and oil was everywhere. 

We are working with a local shop in Maryland that is quite knowledgeable. When they opened the engine up it had about a quart of oil left. The shop in Maryland has been in contact with Continental, and of course they are recommending the engine be torn down. I am not a mechanic, but there is no way we are not going to follow the OEM's guidance (even though I am sure this is their default answer). 

Thus we are getting quotes, and again - I am curious if there are any preferred shops or if there are any which we need to stay away from. Thanks again and really appreciate it. 

[Al Matt]

4 hours ago, PeteMc said:

The TSIO360-LB I think is a pretty straight forward engine, so most reputable shops should be able to help you with the engine.  If you have some real Mooney specific issues, then I certainly head to a Mooney Shop.  And are you sure it's a full tear down?  Did this recommendation come from a reputable shop that just can't do the tear down? 

If you're not looking to do an overhaul, then might I suggest a second opinion from a Mooney Service Cntr.  Air Mods and Repair is a short hop for you over to Trenton-Robinsville, NJ (N87) and it might be worth the time to see if they agree a full tear down really is required and if they have the time in the schedule to do it for you.  (Again, this is if you're just looking to do the oil repair and not a reman.)  Dave Mathiesen is the owner there 609-259-2400.  He was away for a week or so but I believe he's back now.

Give a holler if  you do end up leaving your plane there and need a ride back, downside of N87 is that it helps to know other people that go to Dave so you usually find a ride there or back as needed.   Guessing you fly out of HPH?  I'm at FRG.

 

Thanks for the reply. I just did a quick summary of 'the issue' in a previous reply (see above), but in short.....Continental is recommending a tear down after the engine lost almost all of its oil and ran 4-5 minutes on start up. Thanks for the heads up on Dave Mathiesen, and I will definitely keep him in mind. At the moment, the aircraft is grounded and we are sourcing quotes for a tear down which could lead to an overhaul (depending on what is found). Curious if there are preferred shops or shops that we should stay away from. 

We are at DXR. 

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, Al Matt said:

We are at DXR. 

My first mechanic was at DXT many years ago.

As for Air Mods, their frequently doing recoveries on planes and shipping the whole plane or parts.  But no clue if this is a job for them, you'd really need to talk to Dave.

 

[GeeBee]

For my money, if I was to do a field O/H, Gann Aviation in LaFayette, GA. Carlus is a maestro with engines. Ask Bill Elliott #9

https://www.gannaviation.com/engine-overhauls

 

[Al Matt]

On 11/21/2022 at 7:53 AM, GeeBee said:

For my money, if I was to do a field O/H, Gann Aviation in LaFayette, GA. Carlus is a maestro with engines. Ask Bill Elliott #9

https://www.gannaviation.com/engine-overhauls

 

Thank you for this. Much appreciated. 

[fixandflysafe]

Al, sad story indeed! But these things can happen from time to time. Do you mind giving more info on the oil leak, for the rest of us to benefit?

My understanding is that the oil pump picks up oil directly from the sump (provided the pump isn't dry and lost its prime) and then pushes it through the spin on oil filter if equipped, then through the engine passageways before dumping back into the sump internally. There are a few places on the case or accessory section where it may be tapped off for the governer/prop, oil pressure sensor, and turbocharger system including pressure controller, wastegate and turbo bearings. If the source of the leak happens to be near the end of the oil path, the flow of oil through the system and out the leak easily might have been enough to protect an idling engine from any damage. I believe I have heard that during certification, these engines have to still be making oil pressure with as little as two quarts in the sump. Not sure if that's accurate or a rumor. I wonder if that one quart left meant that the oil pump hadn't had enough time to keep pumping that down to zero through the leak, or if the oil strainer pickup in the sump had been pulling air for awhile, leaving that quart untouched at the bottom. 

Your partner incorrectly assumed that the presence of oil in the sump meant that the low oil pressure was related to a bad gauge. But I have seen Continental engines lose their prime after sitting for months, meaning no oil flows, or they can develop a major leak such as you had. I always try and look at the oil pressure the moment I've stabilized the RPM after every start for this very reason. As an aside, if you know that your aircraft has its hourmeter powered by an oil pressure switch, you might be able to detect a bad oil pressure gauge by verifying the hourmeter is working even if the pressure gauge is zero. I still wouldn't fly it like that, but it helps the troubleshooting.

Anyway, curious to hear the source of such a major leak. Is this something covered by your insurance?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Al Matt said:

Thank you for this. Much appreciated. 

Have you checked with Penn Yan in upstate New York?

[jlunseth]

It’s an old story now but I had this happen nearly a decade ago, LB engine. A piece of plastic that was long and thin passed into the oil quick drain so when the mechanic closed the drain it did not seal. Blew most of the oil out over Lake Michigan and made an emergency descent and landing at London ONT. There was another “swimmer” in the oil, a piece of rubber about the size of a dime that was speculated to have come from a gasket when a cylinder head was mounted before I owned the aircraft. That appeared to have blocked the quick drain entrance hole so the engine got down to around 2 qts. Yes, there is some pressure at that oil level. It was 14 psi as I recall (instead of around 38), and when I throttle the engine to idle to try to save it in case I needed it to make the airport and tipped the nose over to begin an emergency descent, it dropped to about 4-6 psi. I had the engine IRANd at Bolduc at KANE. They did a superb job and I got many compliments from Mooney instructors after that commenting on how smooth the engine was. All that happened at around 1000 hours and the engine is currently at 2250 and will be replaced this winter. I will miss it, it has been a great running very smooth engine. Hope the new one can come up to that standard.

[Tx_Aggie]

Might be a stuck ring or step in the cylinder. Exact same story in my Lycoming IO-360. Didn’t find the problem until they borescoped and pulled the bad cylinder. You might be able to get away with just getting a new/overhauled cylinder or two. 

[Al Matt]

On 11/22/2022 at 3:32 PM, fixandflysafe said:

Al, sad story indeed! But these things can happen from time to time. Do you mind giving more info on the oil leak, for the rest of us to benefit?

My understanding is that the oil pump picks up oil directly from the sump (provided the pump isn't dry and lost its prime) and then pushes it through the spin on oil filter if equipped, then through the engine passageways before dumping back into the sump internally. There are a few places on the case or accessory section where it may be tapped off for the governer/prop, oil pressure sensor, and turbocharger system including pressure controller, wastegate and turbo bearings. If the source of the leak happens to be near the end of the oil path, the flow of oil through the system and out the leak easily might have been enough to protect an idling engine from any damage. I believe I have heard that during certification, these engines have to still be making oil pressure with as little as two quarts in the sump. Not sure if that's accurate or a rumor. I wonder if that one quart left meant that the oil pump hadn't had enough time to keep pumping that down to zero through the leak, or if the oil strainer pickup in the sump had been pulling air for awhile, leaving that quart untouched at the bottom. 

Your partner incorrectly assumed that the presence of oil in the sump meant that the low oil pressure was related to a bad gauge. But I have seen Continental engines lose their prime after sitting for months, meaning no oil flows, or they can develop a major leak such as you had. I always try and look at the oil pressure the moment I've stabilized the RPM after every start for this very reason. As an aside, if you know that your aircraft has its hourmeter powered by an oil pressure switch, you might be able to detect a bad oil pressure gauge by verifying the hourmeter is working even if the pressure gauge is zero. I still wouldn't fly it like that, but it helps the troubleshooting.

Anyway, curious to hear the source of such a major leak. Is this something covered by your insurance?

Thanks for the above. Definitely always trust the gauges. Interesting on the hourmeter. Attached see an image of the issue. It definitely has to go out, and just working toward finding the best shop. 

[Al Matt]

On 11/22/2022 at 6:11 PM, M20Doc said:

Have you checked with Penn Yan in upstate New York?

Yes - we did check in with them (the local mechanic did). From what we understand, Penn Yan is backed up and trying to stay away from Continental engines (for whatever that is worth / means). 

[Al Matt]

On 11/23/2022 at 7:51 AM, jlunseth said:

It’s an old story now but I had this happen nearly a decade ago, LB engine. A piece of plastic that was long and thin passed into the oil quick drain so when the mechanic closed the drain it did not seal. Blew most of the oil out over Lake Michigan and made an emergency descent and landing at London ONT. There was another “swimmer” in the oil, a piece of rubber about the size of a dime that was speculated to have come from a gasket when a cylinder head was mounted before I owned the aircraft. That appeared to have blocked the quick drain entrance hole so the engine got down to around 2 qts. Yes, there is some pressure at that oil level. It was 14 psi as I recall (instead of around 38), and when I throttle the engine to idle to try to save it in case I needed it to make the airport and tipped the nose over to begin an emergency descent, it dropped to about 4-6 psi. I had the engine IRANd at Bolduc at KANE. They did a superb job and I got many compliments from Mooney instructors after that commenting on how smooth the engine was. All that happened at around 1000 hours and the engine is currently at 2250 and will be replaced this winter. I will miss it, it has been a great running very smooth engine. Hope the new one can come up to that standard.

Many thanks. Looked into Bolduc and it is now Horizon. Is that where you are doing your overhaul or are you doing a straight repacement? 

[Al Matt]

19 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said:

Might be a stuck ring or step in the cylinder. Exact same story in my Lycoming IO-360. Didn’t find the problem until they borescoped and pulled the bad cylinder. You might be able to get away with just getting a new/overhauled cylinder or two. 

I hope so. We will see. Thanks. 

[jlunseth]

1 minute ago, Al Matt said:

Many thanks. Looked into Bolduc and it is now Horizon. Is that where you are doing your overhaul or are you doing a straight repacement? 

Straight replacement, new engine. The difference between a factory reman and new was much smaller than it has been in the past, and I did not want the downtime a field OH would involve. We ordered the new engine I think back in May and were told it would be nine months, so waiting for it to show up. Also the old engine was installed twenty years ago, not that that would make a difference to the case, but all the peripherals are getting up there. Bolduc really did a great job. Engine was very smooth out of the blocks.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Al Matt said:

Thanks for the above. Definitely always trust the gauges. Interesting on the hourmeter. Attached see an image of the issue. It definitely has to go out, and just working toward finding the best shop. 

The hour meter, if trigged by oil pressure is still too slow to be used to detect a lack of oil pressure.  If the needle isn’t moving in less than 30 seconds shut the engine down and investigate.

The failed gasket at least explains the leak.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Al Matt said:

Yes - we did check in with them (the local mechanic did). From what we understand, Penn Yan is backed up and trying to stay away from Continental engines (for whatever that is worth / means). 

Another consideration is Triad Engines

http://www.hhtriad.com/engine

[201Steve]

Stupid question, what is the picture of? What gasket is that?

second stupid question, without reading every thread, why would a failed gasket necessitate a Teardown? Missing silicone gasket material, perhaps?

[Guest]

On 11/26/2022 at 5:34 PM, 201Steve said:

Stupid question, what is the picture of? What gasket is that?

second stupid question, without reading every thread, why would a failed gasket necessitate a Teardown? Missing silicone gasket material, perhaps?

The gasket is between the oil cooler and the crankcase.  The engine was run for many minutes with no oil pressure indication while the oil escaped this gasket.  When shut down there was very little oil left.  The engine needs tear down for internal inspection at very least and possibly full overhaul.

[skykrawler]

>> About a month ago, we started burning an excessive amount of oil (almost a qt an hour). The issue seemed to subside, but last week we did a compression test with our local >> mechanic and 2 x cylinders were in the 50s. 

It hard to imagine a mechanic not noticing an oil leak at the cooler on a Continental that eventually became that catastrophic. 

If it was in fact high oil pressure - it may have contributed to blowing out that gasket. 

[Al Matt]

On 11/26/2022 at 6:12 AM, M20Doc said:

Another consideration is Triad Engines

http://www.hhtriad.com/engine

Thanks. Triad seems to have the fastest turn time and I have heard good reviews. Thanks. 

[Al Matt]

2 hours ago, skykrawler said:

>> About a month ago, we started burning an excessive amount of oil (almost a qt an hour). The issue seemed to subside, but last week we did a compression test with our local >> mechanic and 2 x cylinders were in the 50s. 

It hard to imagine a mechanic not noticing an oil leak at the cooler on a Continental that eventually became that catastrophic. 

If it was in fact high oil pressure - it may have contributed to blowing out that gasket. 

I am not mechanically inclined and generally accept a mechanic's view / advice. However, I was never comfortable with the high pressure on start-up (that we were experiencing since the last annual this spring). Everyone always talks about shutting down if the pressure is low after 30 seconds. I think I remember talking about that on my 'intro flight' over 20 years ago. Nobody ever talks about the 'issue' of high pressure, but I think it probably did contribute to blowing out the gasket. The gauge has a green area, and that area does not go all the way to the right. High pressure may not be as immediate of an issue as low pressure, but I think this experience confirms.........it is an issue. 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, skykrawler said:

>> About a month ago, we started burning an excessive amount of oil (almost a qt an hour). The issue seemed to subside, but last week we did a compression test with our local >> mechanic and 2 x cylinders were in the 50s. 

It hard to imagine a mechanic not noticing an oil leak at the cooler on a Continental that eventually became that catastrophic. 

If it was in fact high oil pressure - it may have contributed to blowing out that gasket. 

As a 40 year maintainer it’s equally hard to believe things that pilots do, landing gear up among the more common.