Flatlander Needs Colorado Advice

[Txbyker]

I am a low time Mooney pilot that enjoys flying the flatlands of the Gulfcoast where you file for 9000 feet and you are actually at 9000 feet above the ground.  My wife does not fly with me but late next Spring she has agreed to fly to Fort Collins from Houston in my M20J for a week event. I don't have oxygen on board but could get a portable I guess.  I have never done mountain flying and am a wondering if anyone has any tips for a flatlander like me flying to a 5000 alt foot airport.  I looked at the approach charts in case I had to make an instrument approach and heck I almost need oxygen at the initial approach fix of 10K feet.

Should I go commercial with the anxious passenger or is there some low level path or nearby airport that is more suitable for someone not accustomed to mountains in a non-turbo plane?

[jetdriven]

Fort Collins is on the front range north of Denver.  Its the same as Texas except the ground is 5500 feet out there. Not very far west is where the mountains start.   Your biggest change is going to be a major loss of horsepower for takeoffs, anemic climb performance,  and higher true airspeeds for takeoff and landing.  Keep it light and dont get behind the power curve.  It will be a fun trip.  

[carusoam]

Russ,

There is a few threads on flying with spouses and first timers.  Sensitivity for many first timers seems to be important.  I don't think the 10,000' altitude is the challenge.

A long cross country with the possibility of mountain turbulence ending with an instrument approach....

Probably not ideal for developing the same love of flight you have.

See if you can find some of these threads....you will enjoy the shared first flight / experience of others....

Some of us are doomed to fly alone, others have to rock/paper/scissors for PIC rights.  

Good luck.

Best regards,

-a-

[flight2000]

Technically, you're not really doing any mountain flying since the sharp pointy rocks will be to the West of Fort Collins.  I went from Leavenworth, KS to Meadow Lake, CO (just North of Colorado Springs) and never crossed into true Mountain territory.  The ground just gradually rose to the 6,824' elevation at the airport (coming from the East in my case).  Most of it was wide open farm land that we flew over.  The biggest thing I had to remember was to NOT touch the mixture for landing because it'll kill the engine if you go to far rich.  Same for take-offs and taxiing, lean accordingly for both events. 

If going IFR, just pick a route that keeps you on the east side of Denver and pay attention to the MEAs.  It's amazing to see how flat everything is East of Denver.

If you're thinking of going further west over the pointy rocks, then yes, it'd recommend getting some mountain training because of the variations with mountain waves and the peculiar weather patters they see regularly. 

The two pictures below are about 15 minutes outside of Colorado Springs enroute to and from KFLY.  You can see the edge of the Rockies on the horizon.  These were taken at 10K and 11K resectively.

I think you'll be fine.

Brian

[Hank]

Russ--

I had similar thoughts before heading to Wyoming, but it's really not an issue other than leaning for takeoff, and higher groundspeeds for takeoff and landing. You will use more runway than normal, but your ASI will read the same.

It's kind of strange to fly at 8500' msl and have everything as close as on my weekend breakfast runs at 3000' msl. You will be amazed at how quickly you reach cruising altitude! Just stay away from the tall rocky things and you will do fine.

Be careful, also, of afternoon temperatures in the summer. Density Altitude goes up quickly! If memory serves correctly, landing at Rapid City on a warm afternoon [winds were 20G28, not bad by their standards, and only 40º left of the runway], seems like elevation is ~3300 and AWOS was calling DA of 6800' and advising "consult your Operating Handbook for high altitude takeoff and landing procedures." My Owner's Manual says very little about high DA takeoff, and doesn't mention landing procedures at all. Just keep it lean, fly the numbers like always, and expect to use more runway. Review high DA procedures before your trip, maybe make a checklist for the trip as a reminder.

P.S.--I had less than 200 hours total time when I headed west. It's very doable.

[kerry]

You shouldn't need oxygen at 10k.  I usually always plan 10,500-11,500.  I don't think a 5k airport will affect you much in the spring time.  It's strange when I fly High elevation to the west coast at sea level and I have to bleed off all that alt and also opposite when I depart at 2200' and go to high country and the terrain catches up with you.  Fun stuff 

[RJBrown]

FNL is a flatland airport. Far enough from the mountains that they are not a factor. 8500' runway, nice FBO, not a lot of traffic ILS if needed. As others have advised use the SAME indicated air speeds you use at home. In doing so your true air speeds will be higher. Watch your numbers you will feel too fast. This is why the runways are longer up here. If you want some mountain experience arrange ahead of time for a "mountain checkout" most flight schools around here require them before allowing their rentals to go into the mountains. Lake county airport in Leadville at 9930' was one of the stops  on my check out years ago. Great learning experiance. 

[jwilkins]

I agree you SHOULDN"T need oxygen at 10K, unless you are a smoker, live or work with a smoker, will be flying at night, or have to go higher for weather or staying above turbulence. I had a portable system in my C,  used it on the NY-CA and NY -AZ trips, and at night. I found it valuable. I use OX even more in my K because I'm frequently higher, and it's easier to use with the built in system. Most of the time I don't legally need it, but I find it helps me keep my oxygen levels up even when I am doing 'relaxed' breathing. The Airforce used to require pilots who were smokers to use OX at 5K and above at night so they could see. As others said, you shouldn't need it, but if it's not a problem for you to buy and pack, why not try it? Especially if you fly at night. Long trips create different physiology than a few hours a day spread out with days in between. You might like having it available. 

You can buy a pulse Oxyimeter on line or from Walmart for less than $50. If you find your OX level is getting low you can either put on the OX or breath a little deeper. 

Also, it's true you won't be really 'Mountain Flying' but it sure would be interesting for you to read up on high altitude operations and flying near the mountains. There are several really good Mountain Flying books that you might find useful. If you were doign real in-the-mountains flying you should get some specific training, but, for your trip, reading about high altitude operations and weather near the mountains would be good preparation.

Prescott frequently has Summer DAs above 8000. The locals who learned to fly here don't think too much about it as it is the conditions they learned to fly in. Leaning for high DA and anemic climb rates after take off is just normal Summer operations for them. 

Jim

 

[jlunseth]

I wrote a response from my iPad but it doesn't appear to have shown up, sorry.

You should pull Ft. Collins up on a chart with topography.  The high plains gradually increase starting in the western Dakotas, but other than the ground being higher than you are used to it is flat.  Ft. Collins is not mountain flying.  There are also plenty of good alternates in the Denver area that are not in the mountains, such as KBJC, just a short drive from Ft. Collins.  There are two things you should know that differ from what you are used to.  One is that there are frequent afternoon thunderstorms that roll over the high plains from the Rockies.  It is preferable to plan an arrival in the morning.  Second, the air is thin so it will take the aircraft a little longer to settle onto the runway.  The good thing is that western runways are generally built with this in mind, so just be patient with the plane and don't try to force it.  You will have plenty of room. 

As for O2 and issues with long cross countries, you will not need O2 at 10,000.  If you don't fly any higher than that you can leave the bottle out of the plane and save the useful load unless you have a passenger with some kind of respiratory issue.  I do find that it is useful to be able to fly as high as 16,000 on trips out west.  As a very broad generalization, things smooth out above 12,000 in the midwest, where I live, and you may need to go a little higher as you go further west, around 16 when you get out to the DEN area.  But an NA aircraft really is not equipped to do that in any event, so I don't know that I would plan to be able to overtop any weather, you will just need to fly under or around it.  If you do take O2, as someone has already mentioned, buy a $100 Pulse Oximeter for the peace of mind.  I don't use mine much anymore, because I know what O2 flows work, but my passengers like it.

SatWX whether on a portable or a unit built into the panel is a major advantage for trips like the one you are planning.

[Txbyker]

Thanks everyone.  I have been into Lubbock LBB a couple of times and they are at 3200 and thats about the highest I have had the opportunity to land.  But that is close in topography and alt to Fort Collins so I feel much better.  I am not going west of Denver by plane at this time.  

I have a pulse oximeter that I use.  I read many of the other threads about portable oxygen and understand you probably want a reading of low to mid 90's.  I have been looking at http://www.inogenaviator.com/shop.html for this tankless and small solution for oxygen.  But wow, $3K is a lot for the sake of convienence.  Has anyone used this?  

Many of you seem to be quite comfortable flying 11-12K with no oxygen during the day.  I usually do 9K East and 8K West.  I think I am going to start bumping it up a bit.

[Hank]

Most people are OK with out additional oxygen at those altitudes. I use 9000/10,000 going to see Mom & Dad in Asheville, NC because of a short stretch where MEA is 8600. I also use the same altitudes back and forth to Atlanta, since I pass very near AVL [~20-25 miles west]. AVL is a short flight, 1:15; ATL is twice as long, no problems or headaches or anything. Just take a full bottle of water for each person, since altitude makes me thirsty.