174 Mooneys on Controller

[John Pursell]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Looks like quantity available is up by almost 30 aircraft over the past 3-4 weeks to the highest I can remember seeing.  Numbers were holding strong in the high 140s-low 150s for awhile.

I'm hopefully wrapping up the acquisition of a Mooney 252 here in a couple weeks, but it'll be coming down off T-A-P.

I haven't been paying attention to other makes/models to see quantity.

http://www.controller.com/drilldown/models.aspx?ETID=1&catid=6&Manu=MOONEY&setype=1

[Kwixdraw]

A lot of the problem with GA is the utility that it offers. Business people can do a lot of what they did by actually flying somewhere, right here on the internet. Hey the US postal service is in a downtrend too. Same reason. Who wants to wait for snail mail? Who's going to spend a half mil on a plane when they can get the job done without all they outlay of time and money. Mooney can't do much about those facts.

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

As for the J I don't think it's a dream. I think it can be done.  Which aircraft would you chose if Mooney put out a brand new J for 200K??  I know I would chose the J.

[Kwixdraw]

Much of the desireability would be that the aircraft as a kit could be modified to the owners taste and you don't have to go kiss some FAA pogue's behind to do something on your aircraft. If you build it you can get a repairmans cert to allow you to sign off the "condition inspection" that replaces an "Annual" for a certificated aircraft. You also save because you don't have to put a G1000 in it. You can get avionics that are just as capable at a much lower cost because they don't have to be TSO'd. Spaceship One had Dynon EFIS in it. I'm sure if Garmin had something better that would have been in it. Of course you give up that cookie cutter production quality that allows you to say,"They all do that." Each one is unique and some are then better than others as far as safety and performance. There ain't no perfect world.

[jetdriven]

Quote: DaV8or

What you're missing is, the 201 kit isn't certified and therefore does not carry the liability. Also there is a lot more mark up in parts. Basically you get a quantity discount for buying a whole airplane's worth of parts at once. The Ravin 500 kit I linked above, sells for around $89,000 and it's estimated completed price is about $170,000 to $190,000. You wouldn't say that the Piper Comanche is any more or any less complex than a 201 would you?

[DaV8or]

Quote: jetdriven

That Ravin 500 looks like a fine aircraft, but it is a Comanche in shape only.  The entire aircraft is composite.   Mooney would have to build a composite kit for an M20.  I just don't see it happening.

Why not? If the M20J needs to be all composite, (I personally don't think it would have to be all composite) so be it. It's about making Mooney profitable, not clinging to the past. Time to think outside the hangar.

UPDATE:, the Ravin N913RA that is listed in their photo gallery has crashed and killed the two occupants moments after reporting smoke in the cockpit.   http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2011/05/ravin-500-n913ra-2-people-killed-in.html

Keep this in mind when comparing certfied aircraft to experimentals.  You don't have the protection of al the regulations and FAA mandates.  Asinine or not, their job as regulators is safety.

True. This is always the trade off for experimental planes and some choose not to take the risk. The kit 201 idea is just an option for Mooney to make money and stay in business. It's also the only viable case for new build 201s I can see.

This crash was caused by the automotive power plant though, a Chevy LS1 V8 I believe. The specs for construction by Ravin calls for a traditional IO-540. I do not believe the airframe was at fault.

[jetdriven]

Quote: DaV8or

 

[rob]

Quote: scottfromiowa

Yes,

This IS a complete replay of another thread.  Yes, I agree that GA is being choked and dying a slow death.  I just wish that the government AND lawyers would get out of the way and a new cross country plane that is reasonably priced...insert price here...could be built in numbers to employ a lot of people and pilots like me could afford a used one down the road...just like my dream to own a Porsche Cayman S...used.  It is a reasonable dream.  The dream is dying in GA.  That just makes me sad.

[DaV8or]

Quote: jetdriven

[PTK]

Mooney needs to build the M20J for less than 300K.  Period.  This is the only thing that will lift Mooney out of the mud.  Problem is that it takes as many man hours to buikd a J as it does an Ovation or Acclaim.  The costs are the same.  They need to sell a half a million or more  dollar airplane to survive so I don't see them bringing it back.  They cannot only sell long bodies. They need the J.  The catch is they would have already done so.  Now maybe the Chinese can do it by cutting labor costs.  Who knows.

Anything else is wishful thinking.  

 

[DaV8or]

Quote: allsmiles

 They cannot only sell long bodies. They need the J. 

Why? Should they bring back the C too? Again, as I pointed out earlier, Mooney stopped selling the J when people stopped buying it, not the other way around. After a point, when MAC was still selling planes, the choice among buyers was almost 100% long body.

Anything else is wishful thinking.  

That's what we're doing here. Wishful thinking. Mooney will not be building anymore airplanes and they need to wake up, restructure for parts and support before they go completely bankrupt.

[Parker_Woodruff]

They need to get rid of that huge facility to start.

[Magnum]

I don't understand why they closed the maintenance shop. They should have been able to make a some money with it, at least they'd have kept some trained employees in the company. IMHO a new start is not easy now after all the good workers found other jobs.

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

Mooney needs to build the M20J for less than 300K.  Period.

[Bennett]

I think that we will not see new Mooneys of any model in the future - not unless a Chinese group wants to gain the skills to build a Mooney like airframe.  Even then, in my opinion, it would only make sense to follow the Cessna pattern of having the airframes manufactured in China, ship the components to Kerrville, and assemble them here.  Mooneys are labor intensive, and China's labor rates are still comparetively low, as is the cost of container shippping.  The big question: Why would any Chinese company want to build the Mooney design? We may well appreciate the fine flying and safety qualities of a Mooney, but would they be equally appreciated in a country just starting to build an aviation infastructure? 

So far as Mooney supporting the existing fleet of aircraft: I can't even get an articulating seat bottom (despite repeated promises) for my M20J at a cost of about $3,000. 

[DaV8or]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

They need to get rid of that huge facility to start.

[DaV8or]

Quote: Magnum

I don't understand why they closed the maintenance shop. They should have been able to make a some money with it, at least they'd have kept some trained employees in the company. IMHO a new start is not easy now after all the good workers found other jobs.

[FlyFstr]

RE: "they can't do any of this until the give up on the dream of building airplanes and stop looking for a buyer"

Dave, Please re-think this comment.

Patrick

[WardHolbrook]

Mooney has risen from the ashes several times in the past - the proverbial Phoenix. However, I'm afraid that that was then and this is now. Merely having the best perfoming airplane in your class doesn't guarantee on going marketing success. Look at the turboprop market back to the mid '80s. No one would call the King Air 90s and 200s the best performers in their class. The smaller and faster Conquest IIs and MU-2s would outperform them day in and day out. However, it was (and is) tought to beat a King Air in all around performance and utility. They aren't the best in any particular category, but they're at least "good enough" in all all of them. This all around utility, has served them well and they've been in continous production since the mid-60's with no end in sight. Couple that with a strong financial statement and you've got the winning recipe for continued production. All of the other twin-engine competitors, as good as they were, couldn't withstand the enviroment and withered and died. As much as I love Mooneys, they're facing stiff direct competition from Cirrus and Cessna and it's becoming obvious which aircraft the marketplace is choosing as the better purchase. Look at the problems that Cirrus is having and the glass Cessnas are exactly flying out off the factory. (No pun intended.) Mooney will live on, but only as a shadow of its former self. I think you have to look no further than Aerostar Aircraft Corporation up in Idaho to see the future of Mooney. I really hope I'm wrong, but it's going to take a "Hail Mary" play to avoid the inevitable. I just can't see it happening in today's environment. These things are cyclic, but there are always some casualities. Like I said, I really hope I'm wrong.    

[DaV8or]

Quote: FlyFstr

RE: "they can't do any of this until the give up on the dream of building airplanes and stop looking for a buyer"

Dave, Please re-think this comment.

Patrick

[FlyFstr]

THanks Dave. So I guess you didn't really mean "to give up the dream to build", just push it back until they can start over. I think if an airplane manufacturer gives up hope to build airplanes....well,  that pretty well says goodbye.

[byrdflyr]

In many industries, especially selling products with high acquisition costs, parts and service are the profit center, not the sale of the primary good.  For instance, MRI machines are sold at cost or below, and then annual service contracts and upgrades are where you make money.  I don't think Mooney (or perhaps Cirrus) make much money on new planes, but can make money on service.

I agree it is unlikely that Mooney will produce a new version of the M20.

I agree it is unlikely that anyone will buy Mooney and invest in developing a new airframe (M2x).

What seems most likely to me is that someone will buy the factory OEM parts and service operation.
Perhaps the current Mooney owners should pull together to do this. It has been done before (didn't Eclipse owners buy out the company)?

We've seen other makes purchased with the intent to re-produce legacy designs (American General Tiger, Luscombe 11, etc.), only to suffer the same fate due the generally poor economic conditions.  Folks, the global economy will recover, but the most likely place to produce new airplanes is not going to be in the over-regulated, over-litigated USA.  It will be Brazil, India, or China.  They have the engineering, labor, technology, and capital, to build new designs from scratch. When "basic" new airplanes built in the USA cost $400+, you will see planes built OUS for the lower cost segment of the market.

Other thing that strikes me is:

1. pilots in the US are probably aging out at a much faster rate than new certificates issued;

2. Recent Ex-military pilots (generally) don't seem to be as interested;

3. Airline pilots (generally) don't seem to have the romance for flying like in the 50s-90s);

4. If the active and retiring airlines and military aren't supplying GA pilots (e.g., more UAVs, fewer F16s), and learning to fly?

All of those factors mean a lot of used inventory out there, so why would anyone (other than a multi-millionaire or flight school) buy a new GA plane? The rest of us (mostly weekend pilots) can pick and choose from a vast supply of used for a fraction of the new cost.  Would I love to see Mooney bring back new production, sure, but it wouldn't make sense becaue the wonderful design is dated and expensive to make and sell (here in the US).

 

 

 

 

[fantom]

I believe several MSC's are trying to purchase the OEM spare parts side of the business from Mooney but their are existing third parties doing some of the manufacturing and Mooney has given or sold tools, and other equipment, inclusing STC's to them. Not a good situation.

This is second hand info, of course.

[DaV8or]

Quote: byrdflyr

What seems most likely to me is that someone will buy the factory OEM parts and service operation.

Perhaps the current Mooney owners should pull together to do this. It has been done before (didn't Eclipse owners buy out the company)?

[jetdriven]

Mooney basically "foreclosed" upon themselves and in the process, shed all their debt. Now they are called "Mooney Aviation Company".  So they are in a lot better shape than before.  Also, when I toured the factory in 2001,  was shocked at the fact they didnt outsource anything.  They built their own wiring harnesses, side panels, headliners, engine mounts, everything.   There was a lot of labor in those planes, when they said "hand-built ferrari of the sky" thats no kidding.  But expensive to build.