Delayed Aspen Pirep

[jelswick]

I've had no issues with the PFD yet, but the MFD500 keeps giving me a database failure and is unable then to pull up charts or paint terrain out ahead of the aircraft.  It's done this on two cards so far and Aspen has been very responsive sending new cards to see if that addresses it.  Works fine until about 10 minutes into the flight and then the database failure message.  They've sent another replacement card and promised that if this one isn't the fix for it, then they'll replace the unit.  Unfortunately my bird is now in for annual, so likely won't be able to test the new card for a few weeks.

[PTK]

Can someone, maybe Peter Lyons of Aspen, please explain to me because I'm ignorant on this stuff. Why do these things fail?  I'm researching a glass AI HSI (I have the KFC 150 with HSI system) and when I hear this stuff I get nervous.  Yes Aspen is responsive and all but what is the problem? Is is software is it interfacing  what the heck is it? !  My system is working like a charm but I was looking around to possibly upgrade and complement my brand new GTN 750. When I hear these failures I don't feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: allsmiles

Can someone, maybe Peter Lyons of Aspen, please explain to me because I'm ignorant on this stuff. Why do these things fail?  I'm researching a glass AI HSI (I have the KFC 150 with HSI system) and when I hear this stuff I get nervous.  Yes Aspen is responsive and all but what is the problem? Is is software is it interfacing  what the heck is it? !  My system is working like a charm but I was looking around to possibly upgrade and complement my brand new GTN 750. When I hear these failures I don't feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[fantom]

...and to add to what Parker has written, how many times do you see questions or comments about the "cheapest price" for avionics and installation. How many times you you see the same for "best quality" installation shops?

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I'm going to try to answer this from several different perspectives.  Maybe not to highlight an actual answer as to why these systems fail, but to highlight some realities about aviation equipment and the production processes for installing equipment in our birds.

1). I've helped many individuals with aircraft acquisitions over the past few years.  Several of these individuals have been students of mine, or students of a contractor that worked for me.  I've done legwork on many aircraft, from older Mooneys (M20C and later), to most recently helping on a 2005 Cessna 182T.  I've also recently put a plane into contract that I will soon own.

Having gone through the maintenance logbooks on many/most of these aircraft, I have seen countless instances of "infant mortality" type failures or anomolies in avionics systems (in addition to airframe/engine systems).  Take a group of Mooneys (whatever the model year).  Typically, you'll find that the most frequent maintenance taking place on an aircraft is in the first 200 hours.  I have seen countless autopilot removals/repairs in these planes.  I have also seen many instances where primary vacuum/electric instruments have been removed and replaced (under warranty of course).  Finally, I've seen several instances of G-1000 PFD or MFD failures that have required Garmin service/replacement.

The reality is we fly behind low production equipment.  It's not like we're driving behind Toyota instrument panels.

Seriously.  Go look through the logbooks of any Mooney produced since 1995 (or earlier if you wish).  Even in these days of great technological advancement, airplanes don't roll off the line perfectly and are often in the shop during the days that they're getting "broken in".

 

2) Adding to the relatively few manufacturer defects causing failure, there are many installation errors adding to the failure rate that should not be attributable to the manufacturer.  The fact is there is a learning curve for many avionics shops when installing this equipment.  Many smaller shops do well in learning, many do not.  Chances are Garmin isn't installing your equipment.  This is one more link to fail in the production/distribution/supply chain.

Have you seen the back sides of our equipment?  We're still dealing with Pin-outs here.  Just one poor connection can lead to chasing a problem in our equipment communicating properly.  We're not dealing with high production Ethernet cables here.  I don't have the electrical engineering degree to know why at least all of Garmin's stuff can't connect/interface to other Garmin boxes by Ethernet cable.

3) I invite you to a previous post that I made that highlights the instrument failures I've experienced over my 853 hour flying career.

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?page=4&mainaction=posts&forumid=3&threadid=2660#post30166

 

Your best insurance for getting a reliable installation is to have a competent shop do your work.  After that, keep your instrument skills up to date and be ready to fly off your standby instruments.  In the same way, be prepared to isolate failures on your existing equipment while in IMC.  Your systems can fail, too.  People with the "new" glass equipment are keeping others informed of their failures.  But there are many more untold stories of equipment failures with the old vacuum/electrical equipment as well.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: allsmiles

Thank you for your explanation Parker. So are you saying that It's a matter of tweaking it after the install to get it right and then it's fine after that?  If so the Aspen or Garmin will function as did the equipment it replaced?  Or are you saying that we will have failures just as we can have vaccuum failures and we are simply replacing one potential failure with another.  If we are replacing one animal with another and both are apt to fail then what is the point of this glass upgrade excercise?

[jelswick]

I owe an update as well to let you know that as promised by Aspen, we tried another data card which didn't resolve the issue (troubleshoot that simple solution before replacement) and when that didn't resolve it, they had a replacement unit out to me very quickly and even the swap labor was covered under the warranty.  I've flown with the replacement 500 unit multiple times now and love it.  Great products serviced by a great company that knows how to provide exceptional customer service.  Very happy with my decision to go with the Aspens...

[PTK]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

As far as installation, you're not really "tweaking" anything.  You either get it right or you get it wrong.  It's just like flying an ILS approach.  You either execute the approach or you don't.

There will always be equipment failures in this imperfect world, but I do believe we will see less failures with solid-state equipment, such as we have with "Glass".

The point of glass equipment is IMO is 1) additional information because of "computer" processing of flight data 2) additional information due to a computer presentation of nav data 3) reliability improvements when coupled with a properly executed installation.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: allsmiles

Is this the same thing with the G500?  Same failures?  Or is it "better" in that dept.  I like the bigger area display of the G500. Can these things totally ddo away with ALL steam gauges?

[David Mazer]

I have a PFD/MFD installed prior to the availability of the EA100 (I still depend on my AI for that).  I also had infant mortality and the units were replaced quickly.  I have never flown a G1000 or G500 unit but I really believe the compact scan on the Aspen is terrific.  It's like there is no scan at all.  All the information is right there, all the time.  I've mentioned this to numerous others considering upgrading and a lot continue to say they want the bigger screens anyway.  I don't get it.

The biggest problem I have is with subscriptions.  I have one for the Garmin, one for my EFB from Seattle Avionics,one for XM weather, and one for the Aspens.  On top of that, I would need to buy two chart subscriptions if I wanted to use the charts on the Aspen as well as my EFB.  Since the geo-ref on the Aspen has never worked even after I went through the verification process on the free trial, I passed that $200/yr up.  It just keeps adding up and nobody seems to be interested in packaging with discounts for add-ons.

[PTK]

Quote: Mazerbase

I have a PFD/MFD installed prior to the availability of the EA100 (I still depend on my AI for that).  I also had infant mortality and the units were replaced quickly.  I have never flown a G1000 or G500 unit but I really believe the compact scan on the Aspen is terrific.  It's like there is no scan at all.  All the information is right there, all the time.  I've mentioned this to numerous others considering upgrading and a lot continue to say they want the bigger screens anyway.  I don't get it.

The biggest problem I have is with subscriptions.  I have one for the Garmin, one for my EFB from Seattle Avionics,one for XM weather, and one for the Aspens.  On top of that, I would need to buy two chart subscriptions if I wanted to use the charts on the Aspen as well as my EFB.  Since the geo-ref on the Aspen has never worked even after I went through the verification process on the free trial, I passed that $200/yr up.  It just keeps adding up and nobody seems to be interested in packaging with discounts for add-ons.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: allsmiles

Somehow or other everywhere I look for info someone has experienced a failure of the Aspen.  I'm sure there are issues with th Garmin G5/600 as well but not nearly as much it seems.  I just got the GTN 750 installed and will most likely get the 650 as well.  I view the 750 and to a lesser degree the 650 as GPS/Nav/Comm/MFD units.  Point being the MFD portion of the G500 is really a redundancy.  I see the G500 advertised ~13K and change,  installed ~15K. It seems to me the next logical step for Garmin would be to offer a PFD only unit to complement the GTN.  This would most certainly slash the price of the G500 in half or there about.  Garmin needed the MFD portion of the G500 because the 530 is not much of an MFD.  But now with the GTN there is no real need for another MFD.  If they are moving in this direction they truly will dominate the market and drive prices down.  13 grand for an Aspen PFD only seems a lot of money to me.  So I am waiting!!

[David Mazer]

I did have to replace the units but since then, not one problem.  As far as electronics go, these have been pretty good.  Sorry if I made it sound worse than it was.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: allsmiles

[Parker_Woodruff]

 Quote: KLRDMD

[PTK]

Quote: KLRDMD

[John Pleisse]

Quote: allsmiles

Mine's been perfect from day 1. I really believe the installer has a lot to do with it.

[PTK]

Quote: N4352H

Mine's been perfect from day 1. I really believe the installer has a lot to do with it.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: allsmiles

[PTK]

Quote: KLRDMD

[jelswick]

From the shop that was going to do mine and then the one that eventually did it, both say the install difference is more than just a little more for the G500.  In fact, the reason I moved from the one that was originally going to do it was because the first (a very reputable shop I like) kept delaying mine getting into the shop because of the overrun on time on the G500 install that was being done before I could get in to install my Aspens.  I hate to think what that guy ended up paying for the Garmin install because it was literally months.  I ordered the Aspens at Oshkosh and was scheduled to go into this shop in late Aug/early Sept.  By mid November they still couldn't give me a firm date because of the G500 install in front of me.  I finally scheduled with Ron Collins in Henderson, KY, they gave me a firm date and price and hit both. 

Added is the fact that the G500 won't give redundancy in the event of failure.  I went with the MFD500 so I didn't get that either, but with the MFD1000, you have failover capability.  I don't mind it since I like the original gauges too, but my setup with the 500 and the G500's only option won't let you get rid of the old gauges.

[Steve Dawson]

Isn't the running cost for the Garmin more then the Aspen also? ie: Charts and plates from Jeppeson or Garmin run $1250.00/ year and Aspen runs Seattle Avionics at $300.00 / year. If your considering weather or traffic alert system I believe that they both need the same systems to display them on screen.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: Fastbyk

Isn't the running cost for the Garmin more then the Aspen also? ie: Charts and plates from Jeppeson or Garmin run $1250.00/ year and Aspen runs Seattle Avionics at $300.00 / year. If your considering weather or traffic alert system I believe that they both need the same systems to display them on screen.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I'll just take Foreflight for $75/yr.