ADS-B in Canada, Bahamas and Mexico.

[takair]

I'm starting to get more serious about ADS-B.  I know we have had multiple discussions, but I wanted to start a thread on likely flights out of the US.  For myself, I am likely to take the plane to Canada and the Bahamas in the future.  The NavWorx ADS600-B has caught my eye due to price and functionality.  Call me CB, but I like the thought of using my GTX 327 and GNS-430W with it.  That said, the NavWorx is a 978 (UAT) solution.  Right now this is only legal in the US.  

It appears that Canada, Bahamas, and Mexico do not have a clear roadmap to ADS-B.  What little I can find hints that if they go ADS-B, they will likely go 1090, like the rest of the world.  While 1090 is popular, it does have limitations on bandwidth, thus the 978 does seem to have some advantages.  For our friends across the boarders, what are you hearing?  Any chance that our neighbor countries will go 978?  How many years before they mandate ADS-B?  I suppose the safe way to go is 1090, but the equivalent package for In/Out seems to be about 2X, maybe more.  Or do we gamble that they are still a generation out?

[Bob - S50]

The only real advantage of 978 is for the IN portion.  That allows you to receive FIS-B (weather and NOTAMs).  I believe there are several units that use 1090 OUT but have both 1090 and 978 IN, the Garmin GTX345 being one of them.  When you compare prices, do not forget to include the cost of installation.  Most if not all of the 978 OUT solutions will have a somewhat higher installation cost because you also need to install another antenna or two.  How much more I do not know.  You would have to ask your installer.

[Piloto]

ADS-B in has no advantage for the airlines since they already have TCAS, onboard radar and ACARS. This is the reason why other countries cannot justify spending millions on the UAT/ADS-B ground infrastructure for the little planes. For WX abroad I use my cell phone and look at the IR satellite images (not many countries show WX radar on the Internet). Airport weather conditions can be found by looking for WX conditions at the closest city. For traffic me and others in Europe, South America and Australia use the Traffic-Watch ATD-300. Unlike other traffic solutions that need an external display the ATD-300 will show traffic by itself.

Check:

http://www.monroyaero.com/ATD300Webpage8.pdf

José

[takair]

I already have the ATD, but it does not catch all traffic, especially when head on closure rates are high.   I suspect you have a superior cell phone or service than mine.  I start losing connectivity at most IFR altitudes.  I am already using a portable ADS-B In solution.  I just like the idea of having it more integrated.  The iPad just doesn't quite give me the same awareness that the 430 could and with it tied into the audio full time.  I am personally not that concerned with the installation cost, as I will do it myself, but I recognize that is a consideration for most.  I like the L3 Lynx and the Garmin packages, but they are over twice as much as the Nav Worx, and it appears that the NavWorx is actually as capable, or more....except for the 1090.  My biggest question is if I will need 1090 between here and Canada or the Bahamas in the next 10 years.

[Piloto]

Forget ADS-B in out side the US, it simply does not work. On countries on South America west coast internet weather works pretty well at altitude because the cell towers are on top of 15,000ft mountains over the Andes. On my last ferry over Canada you can get weather updates on the internet about every 10 minutes. I guess it depends on the service provider and cell phone brand. My ATD-300 works very well with the external antenna. In the portable configuration is limited. I power up mine after the avionics master is on to insure traffic detection.  

José

[takair]

Thanks Jose.  I did understand that ADS-B in is only US.  perhaps,  to rephrase the question, how long will it be before Canada and the Bahamas mandates US pilots to have 1090 ADS-B out to fly in their countries?

Regarding the ATD, I do have the external antenna mounted on the belly.  Moved it around a couple of times to get best coverage.  It works on all flights, but I often don't get a warning when converging with on coming traffic until too late.  Behind and to the sides seems to be fine.  Are you saying that turning on the ATD after avionics master would solve this or do I have another problem?

[Piloto]

I am not involved in foreign governments decisions. But I do know that ADS-B is not in their priorities. They would rather spend the money in expanding airport terminal facilities (more revenues). But they will welcome US funds for ADS-B.

Some planes generate spikes during avionics power up that causes the ATD-300 protection circuit to inhibit the antenna bias voltage. Try powering the ATD-300 after the avionics master is on.

José

[Piloto]

Forgot to mention. I keep my cell phone Velcro to the pilot's sun visor. This provides better signal coverage and keeps away the Sun from the cell phone display. If the cell phone is below the windows in the cockpit signal will be limited. Also holding it with your hands limits signal strength. Keep in mind that a cell phone power output is only 0.5 watts. While most COMs are over 10 watts and have an external antenna.

José

[drapo]

ADS-B in Canada is already used, but only in the Northern portion of the country where radar coverage is sparse and only for high level airspace. But since the radar coverage in the southern portion is exhaustive, don't count on Canada implanting ground based ADS-B over that portion of the country. Satelite based ADS-B will be the new thing and the network is almost completed, but again, it won't be used to replace the ground based radar and in the mid-term planning, GA won't be asked to be mandatory equiped.

[takair]

4 hours ago, drapo said:

ADS-B in Canada is already used, but only in the Northern portion of the country where radar coverage is sparse and only for high level airspace. But since the radar coverage in the southern portion is exhaustive, don't count on Canada implanting ground based ADS-B over that portion of the country. Satelite based ADS-B will be the new thing and the network is almost completed, but again, it won't be used to replace the ground based radar and in the mid-term planning, GA won't be asked to be mandatory equiped.

Interesting.  I had just seen mention of Sat based ADS-B.  I wonder if that means that within 10 years we will be seeing an entirely new requirement.  That would imply obsolescence for even the equipment we are buying today....1090 or 978.  That would make me lean toward the cheaper solution for now.

[drapo]

Sat based ADS-B will use 1090, but in the near future, will only be used in the Flight Levels, so if you have a Super 21 like me, unless you already have a new generation transponder, 978 will suffice.

Here's a link to Aerion, the space based ADS-B : http://aireon.com/

[takair]

8 minutes ago, drapo said:

Sat based ADS-B will use 1090, but in the near future, will only be used in the Flight Levels, so if you have a Super 21 like me, unless you already have a new generation transponder, 978 will suffice.

Here's a link to Aerion, the space based ADS-B : http://aireon.com/

What are you hearing from the others in Canada, Are the folks in Canada who fly to the US going the 978 route?  

[drapo]

11 hours ago, takair said:

What are you hearing from the others in Canada, Are the folks in Canada who fly to the US going the 978 route?  

Those I know are going the mode S route since they already have a Stratus and WAAS. If you include installation costs, it's even cheaper in some cases.

[FBCK]

In Canada and I put a Avidyne 340 which has 1090 and 978, just to cover myself off when I fly to the US.

[Bob - S50]

Look at it this way.  It appears that only the USA will allow use of 978.  While nobody else requires ADS-B for GA airplanes (yet), if they do so in the future, it will probably be 1090.  If you install a 978 system and 10 years from now Canada or Mexico or somebody else starts requiring 1090 ADS-B, and you want to go there, you are going to have to replace the 978 with a 1090 system.  It will most likely cost you more in the long run than just putting in a 1090 system now.  As Fram used to say, you can pay me now or you can pay me later.

There are lots of relatively inexpensive 1090 OUT solutions, especially if you have a WAAS GPS (you do in your GNS430W) and a KT76 transponder.

[thinwing]

On October 4, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Bob - S50 said:

Look at it this way.  It appears that only the USA will allow use of 978.  While nobody else requires ADS-B for GA airplanes (yet), if they do so in the future, it will probably be 1090.  If you install a 978 system and 10 years from now Canada or Mexico or somebody else starts requiring 1090 ADS-B, and you want to go there, you are going to have to replace the 978 with a 1090 system.  It will most likely cost you more in the long run than just putting in a 1090 system now.  As Fram used to say, you can pay me now or you can pay me later.

There are lots of relatively inexpensive 1090 OUT solutions, especially if you have a WAAS GPS (you do in your GNS430W) and a KT76 transponder.

That's what I did...