The Mooney 305 Rocket Conversion for Commuting?

[jkhirsch]

Erik, this is the first I have heard about the untimely passing of Houman I just now am reading through the topic on it. I am sickened to hear this, he appeared to have so much spirit and passion for aviation and his son. I don't know if I read it in a post or conjured up in my mind that he was divorced, it's totally irrelevant. I am very sad to hear this and so sorry for the few who were able to spend time with him personally.

[gsengle]

These deaths are why we take these risks so seriously. RIP Houman.

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[jkhirsch]

Death isn't an excuse for opinions and bias, no matter how altruistic you think they are. You skin your cat the way you please, but do not go around telling people it's the only way. I had a very high opinion of Houman and hoped to meet him one day. I read through the other topic and apparently Canada does not do a full report as the NTSB would so there will not be an official conclusion to his accident. The available facts that I have read in the topic about his crash seem to indicate pilot error.

We do know that he did not do all of his training in his Rocket. It's an absolute fact that if he had done all of his training in his Rocket with a seasoned, or an instructor with Rocket experience, that he would have more experience in the plane. You all seem to believe that more experience is better, I believe that better experience is better. I look at experience as a type of polynomial curve a various spots of experience you may be putting yourself at risk as well. We see anecdotal evidence of high time pilots making mistakes.

Would that additional training and time in type have prevented his accident, I have no clue and neither does anyone else.

It does, however, speak to the argument that time in type is valuable, if time in type is valuable than I would assert that training in type is valuable because they you are getting time in type plus the benefits of someone more experienced passing along their experience along to you.

I would never tell someone, 'aww man you can't get a rocket, you've got to stay in front of that airplane and you cant do that as a low time pilot,' it's a ridiculous assertion.

If I was starting from the beginning it would probably look a lot like this, " You've obviously done some research to arrive at a Rocket, I do not know and am not asking you to disclosure your financial situation, but if your finances allow for it, you are committed to flying, and also committed to a Rocket through your decision making process then these are the steps you should take to ensure you are the most prepared to handle the airplane and your mission."

Then I would proceed to discuss some specific situations a person could expect to encounter when entering the world of aviation and the world of plane ownership, then I would discuss some of the specifics of Rocket ownership and recommend full familiarizing oneself with the systems of the Rocket to achieve a level of comfort which the maintenance and mechanical aspects of the plane.

Somewhere near the beginning would also be, "If you are not committed to a Rocket let's vet some more details about what you are trying to accomplish and let's evaluate what the various ways of accomplishing your goal are."

I don't believe in telling, what I will assume to be competent adult individuals that are capable of logical and rational thought, what is "right" and what is "wrong." What I do believe in is helping people build a framework to make their own decisions about what they think is "right" and "wrong"

People tend to have trouble decoupling the decision making process from the results of a decision.

Edited July 19, 2016 by jkhirsch

[Seth]

Just now, jkhirsch said:

Death isn't an excuse for opinions and bias, no matter how altruistic you think they are. You skin your cat the way you please, but do not go around telling people it's the only way. I had a very high opinion of Houman and hoped to meet him one day. I read through the other topic and apparently Canada does not do a full report as the NTSB would so there will not be an official conclusion to his accident. The available facts that I have read in the topic about his crash seem to indicate pilot error.

We do know that he did not do all of his training in his Rocket. It's an absolute fact that if he had done all of his training in his Rocket with a seasoned, or an instructor with Rocket experience, that he would have more experience in the plane. You all seem to believe that more experience is better, I believe that better experience is better. I look at experience as a type of polynomial curve a various spots of experience you may be putting yourself at risk as well. We see anecdotal evidence of high time pilots making mistakes.

Would that additional training and time in type have prevented his accident, I have no clue and neither does anyone else.

It does, however, speak to the argument that time in type is valuable, if time in type is valuable than I would assert that training in type is valuable because they you are getting time in type plus the benefits of someone more experienced than passing along their experience along to you.

I would never tell someone, 'aww man you can't get a rocket, you've got to stay in front of that airplane and you cant do that as a low time pilot,' it's a ridiculous assertion.

If I was starting from the beginning it would probably look a lot like this, " You've obviously done some research to arrive at a Rocket, I do not know and am not asking you to disclosure your financial situation, but if your finances allow for it, you are committed to flying, and also committed to a Rocket through your decision making process then these are the steps you should take to ensure you are the most prepared to handle the airplane and your mission."

Then I would proceed to discuss some specific situations a person could expect to encounter when entering the world of aviation and the world of plane ownership, then I would discuss some of the specifics of Rocket ownership and recommend full familiarizing oneself with the systems of the Rocket to achieve a level of comfort which the maintenance and mechanical aspects of the plane.

Somewhere near the beginning would also be, "If you are not committed to a Rocket let's vet some more details about what you are trying to accomplish and let's evaluate what the various ways of accomplishing your goal are."

I don't believe in telling, what I will assume to be competent adult individuals that are capable of logical and rational thought, what is "right" and what is "wrong." What I do believe in is helping people build a framework to make their own decisions about what they think is "right" and "wrong"

People tend to have trouble decoupling the decision making process from the results of a decision.

Believe it or not - that was post 100,000 for the General Forum.   

-Seth

[gsengle]

Death is a reason to take it seriously. Don't accuse us of being irrational. I'm very rational. You're getting emotional because I'm guessing you take risks many of us wouldn't. You're PIC, go for it.

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[jkhirsch]

I'm not the least bit emotional, don't project your own sentiments onto me. I have never once said to take it lightly nor have I ever accused anyone of being irrational. Stop mis-forming the contrapositive of what I am saying and keep your own words in your own mouth as well. I have said that I assume people are rational and logical and can make decisions for themselves given a set of inputs and don't need the bias of others affecting their opinions. If you have data to support your position great share it, if not your "bias" is the exact connotation of the word, negatively associated with an unfair opinion of something.

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by jkhirsch

[gsengle]

I stand by everything I wrote. I'll let others judge the thread as it stands. Nuff said.

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[N9453V]

15 hours ago, jkhirsch said:

There's always "more than one way to skin a cat" and even though you think your way may be the best, someone else will disagree. There, positing your "one way to skin a cat" as the only way to skin a cat is incorrect and a disservice to the original poster. Positing your "one way to skin a cat" as "this is one way to skin a cat, but there are other ways" would be correct and a service to the original poster.

Andrew: Yeah let's get our dicks out and swing them around, that's going to accomplish a lot.

I never said anyone was wrong, but many statements have been made with implicit assumptions that someone new to aviation may not have any context to interpret.

Andrew: Look at you! There was data behind your 500 hours remark all along.....how amazing. You think a guy new to flying has any clue about FARs or does that seem in your original post that you were pulling it from you know where? Implicit assumptions.  Enough snarkiness.

My point is and has been that in your original post you could have made that reference.

I advocate that many, many people here do have a lot of good data, they just for some reason don't share it with someone who is trying to form an opinion about something that they have limited exposure to.

I'd also be rich in Philly for a small little thing called tortious behavior. Talk about college...we aren't in a bar, nor your old frat house, don't you know the internet is for grown-ups.....

I got my pilot's license in 6 weeks time and have several hundred hours since. If I could have afforded it at the time I would have bought a Mooney or a Debonair and done my training in it. Unfortunately that wasn't the case for me, but I personally think it makes more sense to buy and train in what you plan to fly, if you can afford to do that. Training does not have to be mutually exclusive, he could gain experience in the plane he plans to fly, along the route he plans to fly, all the while developing his minimums and confidence or lack thereof in his abilities during training.

Thanks for your post Jerry both of your anecdotes are relevant, your cancellation highlights varying levels of personal comfort that the original poster would develop through his intimate relationship with his flight instructor.

Anthony: I could [go back and] write what my response to the first post would be if it provides anymore context, but am assuming where I stand is vaguely clear through what I have said. I just don't like people with little experience in a subject or field not being allowed to make their own determinations and being lead to biases held by people already familiar. I have zero negative things to send your direction, I have no idea how you have the time and the patience to do all of your summary posts, but I generally find them to be valuable if not necessary, many times for the exact reasons that I have brought up here. So whether you agree with my language there is some part of you that philosophically agrees with the argument I have made here, otherwise you would not contribute all of your summary posts.

Wow... I was unaware of a correlation between genital size and aviation experience, thanks for the info, jkhirsch.

My posts on here are often fairly short because I'm busy, but I enjoy being able to help others and share my experiences. If you wanted to understand why I was recommending 500 hours as a level where many pilots could likely begin to feel ready using an aircraft for regular transportation in a wide array of weather, you could have politely asked...

Believe or not, you might be able to learn things from people on here if you are willing to adjust your attitude, but it appears you already have everything figured out with your private pilot certificate and several HUNDRED hours... 

-Andrew

[jkhirsch]

If you're so busy then stop wasting your time and everyone else's by contributing pointless 1-liners lacking supporting information.

I don't care why you recommend 500 hours, I care that you post it without any supporting information to someone who "knows nothing about aviation."

Quite frankly I don't care what anyone's opinion is unless they adequately explain why they have formed that opinion.

I don't put "blind faith" in what others say on any topic, and really don't care how anyone feels about it.

When someone makes an effort to obtain information from a source they deem as valuable they deserve effort in return in the form of useful information.

Edited July 19, 2016 by jkhirsch

[geoffb]

I love this thread

[gsengle]

I heard lots of explanations for opinions. I don't get your objections at all.

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[bonal]

I think the OP has long since run off Cant say I blame him

[jkhirsch]

Greg: I don't know I guess I just got tired of the general tone as I read on, I think the guy mentioned he was told he "couldn't" learn in that plane. There are little examples across people's posts where they just say something like it's a fact, when it's not. It happens all the time on here and sometimes it bothers me more than others. I try not to make a post without offering more than just a "1-liner" and in spite of that, I'm sure you could go back and find plenty of stupid posts I've made to that tune. Good information can be hard to come by, polluting the good information with the bad is just such a waste of time to sift through.

I'm not going to go back here and retrace every single post; that would be even dumber than starting the argument in the first place, but the are examples there.

My original point was that if he had his heart set on a Rocket, I'm not going to question it, I'm simply going to lay out what it's going to take to accomplish his goal. He can decide for himself whether or not it's possible for him to achieve his goal after everything is laid out.

Edited July 19, 2016 by jkhirsch

[Guest Mike261]

12 hours ago, geoffb said:

I love this thread

I have to admit...there is a sick satisfaction that comes from watching a thread devolve to "locked"

[Seth]

On July 14, 2016 at 3:54 PM, jkhirsch said:

Death isn't an excuse for opinions and bias, no matter how altruistic you think they are. You skin your cat the way you please, but do not go around telling people it's the only way. I had a very high opinion of Houman and hoped to meet him one day. I read through the other topic and apparently Canada does not do a full report as the NTSB would so there will not be an official conclusion to his accident. The available facts that I have read in the topic about his crash seem to indicate pilot error.

We do know that he did not do all of his training in his Rocket. It's an absolute fact that if he had done all of his training in his Rocket with a seasoned, or an instructor with Rocket experience, that he would have more experience in the plane. You all seem to believe that more experience is better, I believe that better experience is better. I look at experience as a type of polynomial curve a various spots of experience you may be putting yourself at risk as well. We see anecdotal evidence of high time pilots making mistakes.

Would that additional training and time in type have prevented his accident, I have no clue and neither does anyone else.

It does, however, speak to the argument that time in type is valuable, if time in type is valuable than I would assert that training in type is valuable because they you are getting time in type plus the benefits of someone more experienced passing along their experience along to you.

I would never tell someone, 'aww man you can't get a rocket, you've got to stay in front of that airplane and you cant do that as a low time pilot,' it's a ridiculous assertion.

If I was starting from the beginning it would probably look a lot like this, " You've obviously done some research to arrive at a Rocket, I do not know and am not asking you to disclosure your financial situation, but if your finances allow for it, you are committed to flying, and also committed to a Rocket through your decision making process then these are the steps you should take to ensure you are the most prepared to handle the airplane and your mission."

Then I would proceed to discuss some specific situations a person could expect to encounter when entering the world of aviation and the world of plane ownership, then I would discuss some of the specifics of Rocket ownership and recommend full familiarizing oneself with the systems of the Rocket to achieve a level of comfort which the maintenance and mechanical aspects of the plane.

Somewhere near the beginning would also be, "If you are not committed to a Rocket let's vet some more details about what you are trying to accomplish and let's evaluate what the various ways of accomplishing your goal are."

I don't believe in telling, what I will assume to be competent adult individuals that are capable of logical and rational thought, what is "right" and what is "wrong." What I do believe in is helping people build a framework to make their own decisions about what they think is "right" and "wrong"

People tend to have trouble decoupling the decision making process from the results of a decision.

Not all of his training was in the rocket.  He had them majority of his training in two aircraft.  The first, I forget which, and then the Rocket which he owned half with a partner.

I had some personal interactions with Houman at the May 2015 formation flying clinic.  PM me for further details.  He wanted to learn more and was passionate about being a better pilot.  However it was clear he was still in the early stages of his flying career.  It sickens me that he is no longer with us.

 

-Seth

[Guest Mike261]

57 minutes ago, Seth said:

Not all of his training was in the rocket.  He had them majority of his training in two aircraft.  The first, I forget which, and then the Rocket which he owned half with a partner.

I had some personal interactions with Houman at the May 2015 formation flying clinic.  PM me for further details.  He wanted to learn more and was passionate about being a better pilot.  However it was clear he was still in the early stages of his flying career.  It sickens me that he is no longer with us.

 

-Seth

We cannot assume anything, and we won't have a report like we get in the states...but if i recall correctly, He posted that he got himself jammed up in some weather down in Florida and had some difficulty extricating himself from it. May have been the accident trip, i'm not sure...but risk tolerance...one has to wonder.

[chrisk]

On 7/14/2016 at 2:54 PM, jkhirsch said:

Death isn't an excuse for opinions and bias, no matter how altruistic you think they are. You skin your cat the way you please, but do not go around telling people it's the only way. I had a very high opinion of Houman and hoped to meet him one day. I read through the other topic and apparently Canada does not do a full report as the NTSB would so there will not be an official conclusion to his accident. The available facts that I have read in the topic about his crash seem to indicate pilot error.

We do know that he did not do all of his training in his Rocket. It's an absolute fact that if he had done all of his training in his Rocket with a seasoned, or an instructor with Rocket experience, that he would have more experience in the plane. You all seem to believe that more experience is better, I believe that better experience is better. I look at experience as a type of polynomial curve a various spots of experience you may be putting yourself at risk as well. We see anecdotal evidence of high time pilots making mistakes.

Would that additional training and time in type have prevented his accident, I have no clue and neither does anyone else.

It does, however, speak to the argument that time in type is valuable, if time in type is valuable than I would assert that training in type is valuable because they you are getting time in type plus the benefits of someone more experienced passing along their experience along to you.

I would never tell someone, 'aww man you can't get a rocket, you've got to stay in front of that airplane and you cant do that as a low time pilot,' it's a ridiculous assertion.

If I was starting from the beginning it would probably look a lot like this, " You've obviously done some research to arrive at a Rocket, I do not know and am not asking you to disclosure your financial situation, but if your finances allow for it, you are committed to flying, and also committed to a Rocket through your decision making process then these are the steps you should take to ensure you are the most prepared to handle the airplane and your mission."

Then I would proceed to discuss some specific situations a person could expect to encounter when entering the world of aviation and the world of plane ownership, then I would discuss some of the specifics of Rocket ownership and recommend full familiarizing oneself with the systems of the Rocket to achieve a level of comfort which the maintenance and mechanical aspects of the plane.

Somewhere near the beginning would also be, "If you are not committed to a Rocket let's vet some more details about what you are trying to accomplish and let's evaluate what the various ways of accomplishing your goal are."

I don't believe in telling, what I will assume to be competent adult individuals that are capable of logical and rational thought, what is "right" and what is "wrong." What I do believe in is helping people build a framework to make their own decisions about what they think is "right" and "wrong"

People tend to have trouble decoupling the decision making process from the results of a decision.

I think an important point is:  A plane used as a trainer should be forgiving of pilot mistakes.  The consequences of mistakes are not just financial, they involve the loss of life and the mangling of bodies.  I have not flown a Rocket, but it likely starts to push the boundaries of being a forgiving plane.  I expect go-a-rounds are a handful if not properly trimmed.   --Likewise an older V-tail Bonanza would be a bad choice.  Apparently its not to hard to exceed Vne and a few have lost their tails.   On the other hand, a C152 is pretty docile and will likely exit a spin on it's own.  http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-technique/new-pilots/i-learned-about-flying-hands-spin-recovery

So, for a brand new pilot practicing stalls and slow flight, should they be in a plane that takes proper control inputs and 1000s of feet to recover from a spin, or is it better for them to learn in a plane that generally recovers from a spin on it own? (or one with a parachute).  Heck it would not surprise me to find a few folks on this board that  are afraid to stall their Mooney.  And maybe a few that have gotten an interesting ride after stalling one. 

[jkhirsch]

Mike: The thread about it says weather was "disgustingly" VFR at his destination around the time.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/17344-mooney-down-around-montréal/?do=findComment&comment=249886

Let's not go questioning his decision making ability before he even set foot in the plane. He made many comments about flights/trips delayed or cancelled in other threads, because of weather if my memory serves me correctly, he struck me as a cautious pilot. I recall a thread in which he wanted information about taking his Rocket to the service ceiling, and having an 'instructor' with him. When many people would have just jumped in the plane and flown it up there.

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by jkhirsch

[jkhirsch]

Chris: I just mostly disagree, if time in type is valuable (required by insurance), and if training is valuable (required for the license), then training in type must be valuable.

If, admittedly, other planes are more forgiving that leaves to door open to develop bad habits based on those characteristics, or possible a "reversion to training" during a stressful situation.

There are clearly arguments in favor of both sides many of them equally valid.

Edited July 20, 2016 by jkhirsch

[chrisk]

I have limited experience with how the insurance industry works.  I'm under the impression that most require approximately 10 hours of dual.  After that, total time and things like an instrument rating make a larger difference than an extra 40 hours in type as a student pilot.

[cnoe]

[Guest Mike261]

24 minutes ago, jkhirsch said:

Mike: The thread about it says weather was "disgustingly" VFR at his destination around the time.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/17344-mooney-down-around-montréal/?do=findComment&comment=249886

Let's not go questioning his decision making ability before he even set foot in the plane. He made many comments about flights/trips delayed or cancelled in other threads, because of weather if my memory serves me correctly, he struck me as a cautious pilot. I recall a thread in which he wanted information about taking his tocket to the service ceiling, and having an 'instructor' with him. When many people would have just jumped in the plane and flown it up there.

 

I never said anything about his destination weather. I questioned his risk limits in Florida, which i thought he was returning from.

I just went back to his Florida thread...he circuitously admitted get there itis got him into the weather jam. That wasn't just an awe shucks mistake.

[jkhirsch]

Mike: I gotcha, I thought you meant it as though he was 'rushing to get back home after Florida and didn't consider the conditions where he was headed' my mistake.

Edited July 20, 2016 by jkhirsch

[jkhirsch]

1 hour ago, cnoe said:

Might as well go ahead and call your plane TO

[cnoe]

I'll bite... "TO"?

Not the 6 time NFL pro-bowler?

Sucks when the mind starts to go.

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