More Ethanol in US MOGAS

[Geoff]

Taken from a Reuters article...

The EPA will approve a request from the Growth Energy coalition of ethanol producers to boost the amount of ethanol in a gallon of gasoline to up to 15 percent from the current 10 percent, the source said.

EPA is expected to decide in December on whether the fuel, known as E15, can used in cars built from 2001 to 2006.

EPA's approval of higher blends will also help ethanol producers, who say they need to draw down a glut of supply.

Federal law requires energy companies to blend 15 billion gallons of corn-based fuel a year into the gasoline supply by 2015, up from 12 billion gallons this year.

Ethanol helps stretch U.S. gasoline supplies, which is supposed to make America less dependent on foreign petroleum suppliers.

However, E15 gasoline probably would not be available until early next year, assuming the EPA also approves later this year the higher blends for older vehicles.

Many service stations have expressed a reluctance in selling E15, because of most of the fuel pumps have not been certified to sell the higher ethanol blend. Service station owners also face being sued by consumers if E15 harms the engines of boats, lawn movers and chain saws.

[RJBrown]

 Alcohol does not belong in any car at all. We only have it at the behest of the ag lobbies. We use MORE energy than we save by using corn. It is a big con and we are stupid enough to pay for it. Alcohol = water. can't have one without the other.

[hansel]

Quote: RJBrown

 Alcohol does not belong in any car at all. We only have it at the behest of the ag lobbies. We use MORE energy than we save by using corn. It is a big con and we are stupid enough to pay for it. Alcohol = water. can't have one without the other.

[jlunseth]

Yeah, I wish they wouldn't do that.  I have a "Flex Fuel" vehicle, and when I first got it I was all stoked to use the "green" Flex Fuel, which was priced lower.  Of course, the price is heavily subsidized.  But the way it worked out, the mileage was about 25% less than regular gasoline, and the price discount was about 20%, so Flex Fuel cost me more.  On top of that, I had to stop at gas stations to fill my tank alot more.  For awhile, if I was traveling through IA where the price was really heavily subsidized, Flex Fuel was a better deal, but that went away.

The stuff is just not worth it.  It costs more to make than it can be sold for, and the mileage is truly terrible.  Just another massive big ag subsidy that we pay for with our tax dollars with no benefit.

[RJBrown]

Quote: hansel

Corn-based (starch-based) ethanol is old news. Second generation ethanol from feedstock (cellulosic ethanol) doesn't take away from the food supply and actually has a future. Stay tuned.

[DaV8or]

Quote: RJBrown

  Flex fuel cars break more when using alcohol.

[eaglebkh]

Yeah, adding ethanol is a total scam.  When driving my vehicles (accord and land cruiser) on 10% ethanol, I see at least a 10% drop in mileage.  Luckily, there is a 100% gasoline station on my way to work where I typically fill up.

The whole argument about stretching our supply of oil doesn't make sense.  Adding ethanol does not change an engine's need for real gasoline.  It just dilutes the fuel, thus requiring more to achieve the same amount of work out of the engine.

[1964-M20E]

The reason you get less millage with ethanol is it has a lower BTU content than gasoline (corn base ethanol 84000 BTU, gasoline 125000BTU).

[carusoam]

32.8% less energy/gallon  (according to data from 1964-M20E)

According to the chart below, Ethanol is even a lower source of chemical energy.  Fuel oils are indicated as slightly higher source of chemical energy.  Hooray for diesel guys.....

Go towards diesel, and away from alcohol for most compact source of energy.

Propane anyone?

Fuel & Energy  Conversion & Equivalence Chart Electricity: 1 KW = 3,413 Btu/hr Natural gas: 1 Cubic Foot of Natural Gas = 1030 Btu's 1 CCF = 100 Cu Ft = 1 Therm = 103,000 Btu's  1 MCF = 1,000 Cu Ft = 10 Therms = 1,034,000 Btu's = 1.034 MMBtu's Propane: 1 Gal Propane = 91,600 Btu's 1 Cu Ft Propane = 2,500 Btu's Gasoline: 1 Gal Gasoline (mid grade) = 125,000 Btu's Ethanol: 1 Gal Ethanol = 76,000 Btu's Fuel Oil: 1 Gal of #2 Fuel Oil = 139,000 Btu's 1 Gal of #4 Fuel Oil = 145,000 Btu's 1 Gal of #6 Fuel Oil = 150,000 Btu's 1 Barrel of Oil = 42 Gallons

[DaV8or]

Quote: 1964-M20E

The reason you get less millage with ethanol is it has a lower BTU content than gasoline (corn base ethanol 84000 BTU, gasoline 125000BTU).

[triple8s]

I dont get some of this, the lower btu's mean lower energy so ya have to burn more. Look into the propane delivery trucks, they have HUGE gasoline engines just to have enough power to get the job done. Compare another example of btu/power ratio, a deisel pickup vs gasoline powered pickup. Why dont we have gasoline powered Semi's? Gasoline has lower btu/gal than diesel thats why. Has anyone looked into how much fuel must be burned to produce the corn for one gallon of ethanol? What about the economy of it? Will we all have to get long range tanks just to stay up for 3 hours???? I dont want ANY more EPA or FEDERAL Govt people telling me how to live!

[triple8s]

FWIW, we pay tax by the gal, burn more pay more in tax, go figure.

[Barry]

When running alcohol in race cars you need to DUMP the fuel into the engine. True, because of increased compression and cooler running, enormous horsepower can be produced. However. it takes a LOT more fuel to go the same distance as a gallon of gas would take you. In a plane it would be a killer in range and useful load ...

[RJBrown]

Quote: DaV8or

Any reference for this? I have never heard this claim before.

[carusoam]

Advantage for alcohol at Indy:  Water douses the flames of an accidental spill / fire.

Disadvantage for alcohol at Indy: Alcohol fires are nearly invisible in daylight.

The advantage, probably does not translate well to GA.

As Dave pointed out..."Having and energy dense fuel isn't much good if you can't actually utilize all of the potential."

This is where electronic ignition, O2 sensors, and OBDII computers usually comes into the conversation.  Unfortunately, this probably won't be a low cost improvement by STC to our existing engines either.

-a-