1980Mooney

Not knowing more about your plane it sounds like it is a great starter plane for someone on a budget and less of a project plane. Having no corrosion is a huge plus - that is the sort of thing that is usually not economically repairable. As you say "pretty good paint and glass" is perfect for a first time buyer. So what if the interior is dated but good shape - most people buy Mooney's to fly, not to just look at. You haven't said anything about the condition of the tanks (tight or leaking) so I will assume they are good. That model has manual gear I believe - so a buyer gets the speed benefit of gear retraction with simplicity. It sounds like you have the landing gear suspension, fuel and ignition system operating properly and brittle/deteriorating parts replaced. It has a fuel flow computer which is a nice option. And it is running. It is airworthy. It is flyable. So now you are concerned about the long term viability of the engine and the dated panel (no ADSB-out I assume) and inop auto pilot. Let the prospective Buyer deal with that. Once it is airworthy don't spend any more on it. You won't get additional spending back. With all the options in avionics now an entry buyer on a budget may like the "blank canvas". And if your conscience is bothering you regarding watching a buyer fly off with that engine, consider offering to refund in the prebuy (if they purchase) the cost of borescoping the cylinders and valves and cost to pull a jug to look at the cam. That way, as you say, nothing is hidden and all parties know. And who knows - although a lot of people get their panties in a wad hearing the age and hours, there may be some life left in that rugged Lycoming. I have no idea on valve but the pool of low cost entry level certified planes with that combination of performance and payload is shrinking. There seems to be a lot of market interest.

Except that is not what the NTSB has said. They said "portions of the left elevator and left horizontal stabilizer" were found 2 blocks away. They did not clarify what "portion" of the left stabilizer or left elevator departed...a "portion" implies part but not all. That also implies that the right stabilizer was attached and intact with elevator. When pressed the NTSB spokesman said that an airplane is not controllable without an elevator and stabilizer. He was clear that he was not going to comment on the specific causes (the "why" as he put it) of the N9156Z crash. I took his comment as a generic response to the loss of an entire horizontal stabilizer and not the consequences of losing "a portion" of the left stabilizer in this particular case. I think we have to be careful and stay factual. Others are now commenting on the loss and consequences of the entire horizontal stabilizer when that is not the case in this accident. Additionally if you think about it, the loss of part or all of the left horizontal stabilizer will create a clockwise roll force . The horizontal stabilizer is an inverted wing that pulls down slightly. If left and right horizontal stabilizers were there there the left and right side pull down with equal force imparting a stress on the airframe - at the point of attachment on the airframe the right h-stab transmits that force as a lever and creates a clockwise force. and the left creates counterclockwise . The twisting forces cancel and the result is just a downward force. The loss of part or all of the left stab only will unbalance the forces creating a roll. The loss of the entire horizontal stabilizer results in loss of pitch control. Reacting to an uncommanded or uncontrollable roll is different than reacting to the loss of pitch control.

I have been in recent contact with Rocket multiple times. They have been in possession of my engine mount 6 weeks as of today and have been repairing some corrosion. I pray that they ship it tomorrow. For quickest response call 509-535-6445 or 509-534-2025 between 8 AM -12 PM Spokane time (PDT) The recording says they are only there Monday - Thursday but they are frequently there on Fridays. I have left messages and sometimes they call back but don't expect a quick response. I generally keep calling until Darwin Conrad (owner) or someone named Doug answers. I have not had any luck getting them to answer the phone after 12 PM (PDT). I have previously emailed them at Rocket@icehouse.net but quite frankly never got a response. There may be some history between Rocket and your MSC. I suggest that you call Rocket yourself. They continue to support the Missile and Rocket conversions but things move at a slower pace now days.

Perhaps a typo?

Tight is right. When you say "I absolutely have to be out there on the 7th" do you mean September 7? If so it sounds like you will be flying over the holiday weekend. And so when you say "the plane goes into annual about a week and a half before I would need to leave" do you mean drop it off on August 25 and hope to have it done, ready to pick up on Friday September 3? There have been comments online in MS and I have experienced firsthand here in this part of Texas that there is a tendency for A&Ps "drop off" dates to slip because they are behind on completing existing planes. And many A&P's, on a first annual for a new customer, tend to find numerous examples/problems from poor prior work in addition to current squawks especially in a 40+ year old plane. Just hope that none or your A&P staff are taking that last vacation before school starts. Also hope that they don't find anything that needs to be sent out for IRAN or OH. It will never come back in time for reassembly. Everyone will be rushed. And echoing the last comment to "do not push yourself because of your time constraints." any slip in the Annual schedule will make you feel rushed. It's not a good situation in your first trans- continental experience. Given flexibility of time, this is a great journey. Also - have you given any thought about how your might deal with a breakdown along the way? You will not find a mechanic on the Labor Day weekend even for something minor. I would seriously have your "plan B" commercial tickets reserved and handy.

You are touching on "marginal value" pricing vs. "marginal cost" pricing. Yes, the critical parts keep the plane flying as you highlight, ....so if your plane is worth $100,000 airworthy and only worth $30,000 scrap value then we should be prepared to pay something approaching $70,000 for any major part that is critical to keep it airworthy...right? That makes this $1,900 single part for only one seat look like a bargain. However, Mooney made thousands of planes with the same basic seat design so you would think that they have the drawings, dies and the welding jigs. And one would think that the marginal cost for material, set up and labor should result in a reasonable price around $500 even with 100% mark-up or so for lawyers. If on the other hand Mooney tossed all the jigs and dies and manufacturing drawings for the legacy fleet, as some have claimed in past posts, then "reinventing the wheel" on these parts is expensive and takes time (if Mooney wants to supply at all). It is no wonder that many MSer's, in order to keep their plane affordable, are motivated to think long and hard about parts as pieces metal that "someone" can build "in their garage" or else scavenge from dead Mooney's. Another active MSer summed it up well last year - "if original parts are available, my AI has insisted that they be used...when original parts are not available, my AI has allowed me to make or modify my own parts (as it makes sense). Factory parts cost about 4 to 5 times what they are worth."

I am still stunned that Mooney wants $1,900 for that small rather simple piece of steel and yet apparently there isn’t enough profit in it to motivate them to actually manufacture any. But I shouldn’t be - that’s why they are not making planes.

Doesn't a Progressive Inspection, over the course of a year, entail exactly the same level of inspection, the same depth, cover the same completeness and thoroughness as an Annual Inspection? Isn't the Progressive just breaking the process up into several segments of shorter duration rather than occurring all at one time? Therefore, everything "comprising" the airplane still needs and gets an "annual" inspection.

I am puzzled by your comment that "The Mooney doesn't need annuals anymore". Can you elaborate? I thought that every plane has to undergo an annual inspection in order to be legally airworthy. Maybe I am missing your point.

Well with Mooney that is likely true. And if you look at the FAA Prelim Incident and Accident Report (ASIAS) Mooney's are grinding into the ground regularly every week. There are 4 on the 10 day list - 2 gear up/collapse and 2 off field crash landings. 2 weeks ago there were 5 on the list. And then there are the hangar queens just rotting away. Most will be scrapped or just sit around and never fly again like the subject of this thread. The pool is shrinking. And if you want to qualify it as "nobody builds new affordable GA airplanes" I think that is true. The 70's are long gone. The FAA, in their latest Aerospace Forecast 2020-2040, predicts that the US fleet of fixed wing piston general aviation planes will drop from about 140,000 in 2020 to about 115,000 in 2040. "The largest segment of the fleet, fixed wing piston aircraft, is predicted to shrink over the forecast period (2020-2040) by 26,365 aircraft (an average annual rate of -1.0 percent).

I assume that your lawyer does not work for free so I assume you are out even more money plus time in court. Sounds like "lose-lose" or "only the attorney wins"

Jetman - you show up on Mooneyspace as a "Newbie". Are you new to flying, new to owning and maintaining any type/brand of plane or new to flying/owning/maintaining a Mooney? How long ago did your partner acquire the Ovation and has it gone through an Annual since he bought it? How do you know the condition?.. the "Garmin that needs $5,500"? Is he showing you the Pre-Purchase Inspection (PPI) that he paid for prior to acquiring the plane? Or is he simply informing you? The first Annual after purchase the PPI can be 2 different things. The first Annual after purchase can be shockingly high. First the Annual will be more thorough - there will likely be more disassembly and inspection than the PPI that he paid for. You will do oil analysis. Your A&P will likely point out things that, although "airworthy" should be replaced (or will not likely last until next Annual) while you have the plane apart (belly off, inspection ports open, etc.). Your A&P with the plane apart will likely spend more time looking for corrosion or other points of wear or stress. It is 22 years old and 1,450 hours - has the engine and prop been overhauled? You could easily spend $40,000 on an engine overhaul. Prop overhaul can cost you $3,000 - 4,000 Seemingly small things like the "starter adapter" on the big Continental engine can cost you $2,000 - 3,000 for repair and overhaul. That's about 66 hours per year on average - if you look at the maintenance logs, has it been flown regularly each of the last few years? (i.e. - 60 - 100 hours per year?) Or has it been more idle the last 2 years? - A regularly flown plane will be in better condition usually. The reason I ask is although tires, batteries and the landing gear disks may have passed the PPI ("it is ready to go"), these things will fail with age - and idleness seems to exacerbate. Look at the logs and see when they were replaced. You will spend $1000's. Good tires can cost over $200 each and good Michelin tubes can cost $100 each. I assume you know that regular "Massive electrode" spark plugs cost about $30 each times 12 plugs and "fine wire" plugs cost about $110 each times 12 plugs. Have the fuel tanks been resealed? - any sign or leakage? You can spend many $1,000's chasing fuel tank leaks (as much as $11,000 for complete reseal) . One Bravo owner commented here " 1999 was not a great year for tank sealing at Mooney, I hear." Search "mooney fuel tank leaks" If you trust your partner and the PPI that he paid for, you can use it Otherwise as said above pay for your own PPI I would budget $6,000 ($3,000 for you) for the first Annual in addition to your Avionics issues. All the seemingly little stuff adds up fast. As said above "Must have money to support a big flying habit." Warning: This advice is worth what you paid for it....

I would guess that most Mooney admirers/owners are programmed to believe that faster is always better...

This is what Garmin, Aspen, Avidyne and BendixKing and others have us doing…

One price that is not dropping is the price of data bases and updates. And those that said the price of SV hardware is dropping are probably right. It's like the market evolution of TVs. Think of the current version of SV as "SD"...Standard Definition. I bet someone will soon be introducing a version of enhanced SV...think of it as "HD". And it will require you to buy a larger more costly data base to drive it. And after you spend your wad on "HD" then there will be 2K and 4K and 8K and ..... each enhancement like a siren song inviting you to spend a pile on. And each one requiring more and more data that you must purchase. And as each enhanced version/new design is introduced the price of current model equipment drops. This isn't like the old days where you could spend a lot on a King Silver Crown stack and expect that it would last the life of the plane without further investment (only repair).

Definitely remove the panel and glue it from the backside. Done carefully the crack will barely be visible from inside the plane – you will probably be the only one that notices it. And with a long crack like that A strip of fiberglass cloth tap pressed onto the glue as suggested will give it more strength. Every year my panels gain epoxy.

Those are the original unfinished/uncoated lead Charlie weights installed in 2001. They have been exposed to the humid and corrosive gulf coast air for 20 years. If they were carbon steel they would be a rusted mess. Mooney may use steel. There was a topic on 252 balance that showed the mooney parts. They are green and the total weight is only 19 lbs with 3 weights. I think Rocket made special weights heavier lead weights. No ballast on my M20K 252, maybe required... - Modern Mooney Discussion - Mooneyspace.com - A community for Mooney aircraft owners and enthusiasts Mooney Charlie Weights in a 252: From the M20K Service Manual

My Missile is annual so I took a picture of the Charlie weights for you. There are three stacked and bolted together (there is a smaller one under the large one in the middle) and yours should look like this:

The Hanlon and Wilson studded muffler had spring compression ball joints and no U clamp. If you dig into the remarks it appears it was installed in each of the C,D,E and F models. The Mooney built ribbed muffler came with slip joints. The notes indicate that it appears it was installed in each of the C,D,E and F models also. The first ones also had ball joints on stacks 2 and 4. The later ones did away with the ball joints and apparently added the joint with the U clamp. The foot notes on page 144C says that the Mooney built ball joint cores were no longer available and to replace with newer design. The drawing is really poor and does not show the clamp. But if you go to the parts list it shows your clamp on stack 4. Here is another supplier that clearly shows the clamp. And that is not an "Autozone clamp" as someone called it. That is a $218 clamp from Lasar if you can get it. You may not be able to read the dark print that says "SOLD OUT". Don't over torque it and strip the threads!

I am with Skip. Most of you seem to know more but a lot can be resolved just by looking at the Mooney Parts Manual. You have a 1966 E and I assume you have a manual. But if not I have attached one. Apparently Mooney built all those models with either a Hanlon and Wilson studded core muffler or with a Mooney manufactured ribbed core muffler. See pages 142 - 144C. 1965-67 Mooney-M20C,D,E,F-parts-manual-Rev. July 1976-pdf-free.pdf

The Service Bulletin M20-279 for the Avionics Actuator/Motor says: "Allow @ 1 minute between cycles to avoid overheating motor" See instruction 7 SBM20-279C.pdf

BTW. I also fly sometimes with copilots of various weight. I do not add any weight in the baggage compartment then either. And I don’t notice any material change in nose up trim. As said above I have never dialed in full nose up trim in flight.

Something is amiss with your plane. I fly my Missile single pilot all the time. I have no weight in the luggage compartment. My trim is generally 2/3 to 3/4 but never, ever all the way. I have an 8 lb Aerosafe Standby Vac, WX500 module and the Century Autopilot box in the tail within a foot of the baggage compartment wall. But they don’t weigh anything close to your bag of sand.

I think that the relationships with A&P's in the future will take longer be more expensive it will be harder to find good support and some may have to travel further to get it many will retire and few new will enter the market In the last 22 years I have had one A&P retire on me and the other let me go because he doesn't have the capacity to provide me service any longer. I suspect that I will be paying more with the latest one. Everyone is missing the big picture - Fixed Wing Piston is a shrinking business. Look at the latest FAA Forecast 2020-2040 for General Aviation The number of Fixed Wing Piston has been dropping steadily. About 160,000 in 2010 forecast to drop to about 120,000 in 2040. Look at the Population of A&P's per FAA Airman Certificates - it has dropped about 10% for "Mechanic" and "Repairman" categories from 2010 to current 2020 even though the number of commercial aircraft has grown. The General Aviation A&P's have a harder time competing for their share of this shrinking pool of talent/mechanics. And the ones in commercial, if going from large to small will likely stick with turbine aircraft - not piston. We are in a market that will see consolidation - manufacturing and service. It will be harder to attract capital and people.

I am not sure that I follow your point. When you say "Cirrus guys" do you mean the plane owners or Cirrus Aircraft Co.? I was paying the same shop rate as that A&P was charging Cirrus, Beech, Cessna and Piper owners for hourly repairs. He has lots of Cirrus work. He said a lot is on a maintenance contract plan and some is warranty. So the Cirrus guys (owners) are paying nothing for the work done on warranty (Cirrus Aircraft Co. pays). And I am not familiar with the pricing or structure of the maintenance plans. He has more work than mechanics so he had to make a business decision on what to cut. He decided that his future is with a company that is building and delivering the most planes and provides complete factory support. The Cirrus planes are newer on average than most other brands. There appears to be a lot of similarity amongst the Cirrus lines so there may be greater efficiency for this A&P providing services. Perhaps his profits are higher on his Cirrus work. Let's face it - 40-50 Mooney's have undergone lots of mods making each one a bit different to work on. My Missile mod is at the extreme end. I don't take it personally - like I said he made a business decision that favors Cirrus work over others including Mooney. If he wanted to do me a favor, he could have told me in February that he was not going to be able to take my plane at the end of March when the annual expired. Maybe he thought he was going to hire another mechanic by then so he held off and stalled on telling me until late April when the situation was hopeless. Then I had to find another A&P and wait to get an opening in their schedule. The new A&P asked for and got my plane this past Monday .... they are telling me that they might start on it this Friday. Let's hope.