Pete M

Ok, stepped into that. Very funny:) 4 way gps runs. 23", 2550rpm at about 8500ft then 21", 2550rpm at about 10,500ft. Both runs avg 162.75 knots. Newly oh'd motor, new cam, new lyc cylinders, new exhaust, new heavy hub prop, slick mags, lightweight starter, new sanded primer paint, ailerons rigged at 0dg. I spent a lot of time and money on that plane.

Owned and restored a '64 E. A complete strip and reseal costs 7k from one of the shops that specialize in them? Boy, prices sure have come down. Unless of course you're talking about a patch job in which case it'll be 7k every year as the leaks spring up. Been there, done that. I've had bill wheat on the phone many times. A 67f is not a 65 e. The 65 had eyelets to allow room for the cylinder heads because the cowl lacked clearance on the 64...a patch instead of dealing with the problem. Try fitting an overhauled exhaust on one. That is but one issue. Ya wanna talk prop governors? I always thought the twisted wing f was a cool idea...cant remember what year that was....'67, '68? The '64 E was the fastest short body made. Mine did 163 true at about 10,500 ft. by the time I was done with it. No speed mods. I had the old style ailerons. Best if you can get one with the newer style trailing edges...much better feel in roll. I also had the generator instead of an alternator. Bulltproof but heavy and didnt provide good current at idle. Had it overhauled at the local tractor shop:) No pc on my '64...could've used that as I regularly flew it across the continent. I learned to fly and spent years in a place where all they flew were mooneys. More mooneys there than in kerrville...and yeah, spent a great deal of time in that area as well. Some short body or 1st gen models were unique like the twisted wing f but all things being equal I think Mike Bushes advice is benificial. Buy the latest model airframe you can afford. Everything I mentioned in my post I experienced first hand. It ain't some shit I just read on the internet. BTW, Ive flow every model Mooney made from the m20b through the 252 and most of the different years. Ya ever been in a mooney mustang?

Like the previous poster mentioned, what was done at overhaul, new cam and lyc cylinders? Old cam and been sitting since OH? Run... Additionally, no mention of tank reseal...10 or 15k...needs paint...10k...no modern instrument panel makes the 430 less valuable for ifr flying or to train in. Maybe a steal at 55...at 70, not so much. I also prefer a newer airframe. In '66 they were still working out some airframe bugs. You could also buy privately for 6 or 8k less. Thats a couple of g5's if everything else is ship shape.

Everyone in the tank is electrocuted and bursts into flame?

Why is Mooney not competitive? In the earlier years it was small size, poor visibility, difficult access. They failed to capitalize on the success of the J by building and successfully marketing a training airplane. It amazes me how many pilots get their certs and then go out and buy training airplanes because it's what their used to. I think mooney realized this when they attempted to build their mil trainer, unfortunately since they couldn't market it to various military's because the wing doesn't have good inverted handling characteristics they abandoned the project. The added visibility, better access and loss of access to the training pipeline that the mil trainer would have provided was a critical error. By the time cirrus rolled around, they were finished. No way to compete with that new, modern design on the emotional level that people use to make buying decisions. In the 70's air fare's were much higher than today and guys used their planes for business. Not so much today for obvious reasons. Today the market requires training airplanes, not million dollar airplanes that aren't so different than a/c I can buy used for one tenth the cost. Mooney's only hope of survival may be if they avoid the same mistakes in the Chinese market. Today airplanes are so expensive to buy and maintain that they need a job, they need to be revenue generating in order to justify being widely produced, otherwise it's just a niche toy market. When the wings started falling off of the arrow's I figured that the prices of old mooney's would start to rise due to demand in the training market but the faa moved so quickly in changing the rules that require a complex airplane for commercial and cfi that it had a negligible affect. If the rules had stayed the same or the faa had moved at it's usual glacial pace it's quite possible that demand may have even justified the production of a newer J like airplane. Just one of a long string of bad breaks for Mooney...

Yeah, I saw that:) my serial number was 418...dont know why I remember that:)

So the abandonment of reason is the rule of the day?

Yeah, I know:) Thought the owner might be on here...maybe have some questions...

Oh, k...i spent a lot of time in princeton in the 80's. Conte's on Nassau...best sausage pizza on earth:) Grew up in Verona.

I owned it...restored it...thats all:) if you google the tail number you'll see pics of it on someones website. Papparazzi got pics of it when i flew it to sun n fun 2009. Hey, what town are you in, in jersey? Grew up there.

Anyone here ever own N1991Y? Pete

Wrong conversation? I agree about a late model j and 252. I'd spend the money there in a heartbeat. You're assumptions about an f always increasing in value...well, it's an assumption. I see f's for sale cheaper now than 15 years ago when i bought my e. The j's however have gone up across the board. E's are up too. C's and g's about the same. How many years would it take? How many generations of new avionics? By then, anything in it would be so old that it wouldnt be marketable without substantial discount. Talking about "miserly, while taking a match to 60k makes no sense at all to me. There's just no way it makes sense. Useful load...160k...bonanza. The ovation pictured? What more could you need? Regardless, that airframe will capture more of a 100k upgrade than an f. I'm just sharing thoughts here guys. Don't take it for criticism of anyones choices. Hey, i had 75k in a 64 E that was only worth 55k, so I get it. Just tryin to pass on some lessons learned. As a side thought, being in the instructor biz, i had considered putting glass in an old e or j and using it as a glass trainer for instrument and commercial. There's a market for that. But in that case the costs would pay for themselves many times over the lifespan of the airplane. Lots of airline pipeline students here in fl. With all due humility,:) Pete

Ok, and how much would one need to spend on an f to make it worth 125k? 200k? 30k overhaul, 15k tanks, 15k paint, 50 to 80k modern radios and or glass? 3 blade prop? Speed mods? Ect, ect. In the end its still a 50 year old airframe with an ancient engine. Dont get wrong, i love'em but not 160k worth.

upgrade plan? Sure:) Sell the f, and use the money to buy a more modern airplane with the stuff you think you need in it instead of literally throwing away 60k. I get it. I'm all for the forever plane but there's a limit to what any reasonable person should spend on a $60,000 airplane. I'd be thinking about an eagle, but hey, thats just me:)

when i repainted my e i didnt use wing walk. Just a patch of pearl grey and some extra clear to protect it. Figured i could use tape if it got slippery. Never had a problem, even wet. I dont like the look of wing walk. Especially the black. Pete

Couple quick points. Rigging not withstanding. Center the ball then Hold the nose steady by looking out the window. Keep it steady on a cloud. Or some such... Faa still requires demonstration of full stall from pp applicants. Slow flight parameters have changed. My e would drop a wing pretty abruptly. Rigged ailerons for 0 dg. Book calls for 0 to 2dg down if i recall. That solved it. Pete,...curently over worked cfi...

Freezing rain is but one way ice accumulates. If I'm at 5000ft and the cloud bases are at 10k do I climb? Hell no. If I'm in cloud and start picking up ice do I climb to where ice is generally at it's worst hoping I can punch through? If I'm just below the clouds in freezing rain and it's 30f how many thousands of feet do I need to climb in visible moisture before it's 0 F and the ice stops accumulating? Situations are all different depending on freezing level and other factors but generally a 180 should be your safest choice if you noticed the ice fast enough. No one says you can't do a climbing or decending 180. Noticed early enough, the 180 is usually your quickest way out. The above is meant for the less experienced of us. The older guys have learned how to put the pieces of the puzzle together to obtain the best solution. That's why they're older:) Just my 2 cents of internet wisdom. YMMV...

I read somewhere on the internet, so I know it's true:), that the port and polish was only $200 a cylinder. Cheap horsepower if true.

Go around, old short body mooney, 75% throttle, trim, full throttle. PTS way? No:) but more managable:)

Lycon claims a 5 to 8 hp increase per cylinder with a port & polish & flow match. 220Hp? Add a challenger filter a nd power flow exaust maybe. Seems conservatively 225 is possible without the risk and associated wear of higher compression pistons. No direct experience but seems worth a call to lycon at overhaul time. Would be interested in hearing anyones direct experience. Pete

I recall having to send my exhaust system out for overhaul in 2005 to someplace in MN I think. They had an ad in trade a plane or some such thing. I was suprised when I got back what appeared to be a whole new system. Total cost was $1400. I imagine it would be quite a bit more today. Time for a powerflow? I think my origunal lasted 4000 hours. Is the exhaust an item that should be replaced at OH?

I did most of my pp training in my E model some 16 years ago. I'm curently a working cfi. Semi-retirement gig:) I dont recall needing anything other than the poh and some basic power settings for pattern work and the various acs (pts) manuevers. I did need to figure out how to get a good descent rate going in bumpy air without the gear alarm blaring:) For that I'd pull the prop back to 1950 and go to min throttle. That would get me about 120mph which was comfortable in turbulence. I would be more concerned with the dreaded bounce:) Many of my pp students balloon when they're learning to flare. They also dont add enough nose up trim so when they release the back pressure to come back down they inevitably come down nose gear first. I teach them to give it some nose up trim after they pull throttle over the fence or in the roundout while holding pitch constant so the controls are nice and light after round out and in the flare. When the controls are heavy they lose the fine control of pitch they need for a smooth landing and are more likely to bounce.

Regardless of oil temp at the temp guage when water in the oil comes in contact with hot engine parts, my sense is, it likely vaporizes, for the most part.

You need a Mooney pilot in Stuart? Call me. I'm a cfi over at Treasure Coast Flight School. I owned an E for 7 years. Pete 352.642.5579

Hi Causo:) I see you're in NJ. I'm from there. Been in FL since 2008.