LardLad Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 As far as I can tell Mooneys are now (all?) able to be flown under light sport with the only real limits being 4 seats and 61 knots or lower stall speed in landing config? Well, I guess not the Mustang... But anyway, does this matter? I guess if you let your basic med lapse you can still fly under 10k until you finish the paperwork? Is that pretty much it for those of us already holding a private? https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/MOSAIC_Final_Rule_Issuance.pdf Wonder how this impacts new planes built under this standard. Specifically curious if, like current LSA, you'll be able to change factory built planes into experimental category with some basic paperwork. We could be seeing shiney new experimental 182s?
Scottknoll Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 I think it’s 59 knots clean. Based on an another thread elsewhere it sounds like the announcement may have been misinterpreted as 59 knots dirty. Ovation AFM shows 66 knot stall in the clean configuration at max weight. I’m sure some Mooneys qualify, but I don’t think mine does. This is an excerpt from the final rule… 717 pages long.
LardLad Posted July 22 Author Report Posted July 22 I've been confused about this too, it might be both but 61 in landing config is mentioned in a bunch of places: FAA considered all comments and has decided to increase the maximum stall speed eligibility requirement in § 22.100(a)(3) from the proposed 54 knots CAS VS1 to 61 knots CAS VS0 for special airworthiness certification of light-sport category airplanes.29 The 61 knot CAS VS0 is a compromise between the proposed stall speed that would provide lower kinetic energy for survivable emergency landings and one that could achieve safe operations of heavier airplanes allowed by this rule, as discussed in the following paragraphs. Though most commenters favored either a 58 knot CAS VS1 or a 54 knot CAS VS0 or higher, the same safety justification for raising the maximum VS to any of these values can also be applied to 61 knots CAS VS0 with equal validity. 1
LardLad Posted July 22 Author Report Posted July 22 Sadly it looks like there is no path to us all enjoying that repairman certificate and doing our own annuals. I think Mooney could build my m20c next year, identical to what it is, and that plane could be registered light sport and somebody could get a repairman cert for it. They explicitly blocked any path to change registration types or anything for this purpose though, as far as I can tell. Not that I want to do that personally, was just hoping to see some of that bizarre red tape go away. 1
TangoTango Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 (edited) I'm still trying to digest this monster of a document (MOSAIC Final Rule Issuance), but on pages 23-24 it appears there are two separate speeds. For light sport category aircraft, the limit is 61KCAS Vs0, and for light sport category pilots, the limit is 59KCAS Vs1. Assuming you hold a PPL, I think any Mooney with a dirty clean stall speed up to 61 59KCAS can be flow as a LSA, meaning no medical required. That would certainly not include my J model. EDIT: I had the two definitions confused. See lower in the thread Edited July 23 by TangoTango Correction
Hank Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 3 minutes ago, TangoTango said: I'm still trying to digest this monster of a document (MOSAIC Final Rule Issuance), but on pages 23-24 it appears there are two separate speeds. For light sport category aircraft, the limit is 61KCAS Vs0, and for light sport category pilots, the limit is 59KCAS Vs1. Assuming you hold a PPL, I think any Mooney with a dirty stall speed up to 61KCAS can be flow as a LSA, meaning no medical required. That would certainly include my J model. The clean stall speed of my C is 64 mph = 55.6 knots. Does this mean that I can not renew my BasicMed at some point, and keep on flying???
LardLad Posted July 22 Author Report Posted July 22 11 minutes ago, TangoTango said: the limit is 61KCAS Vs0, and for light sport category pilots, the limit is 59KCAS Vs1. That sure does look like the case. What in the world does that *mean* though I wonder? Maybe it's meant to be like retractable and variable pitch where sport pilots would need an endorsement to fly the higher speed sport aircraft? I haven't found the specifics but I'm assuming all of us with private pilot licenses probably get waved through that, or I guess at the worst just take your friendly local cfi up for an hour and get some logbook entries.
LardLad Posted July 22 Author Report Posted July 22 11 minutes ago, Hank said: The clean stall speed of my C is 64 mph = 55.6 knots. Does this mean that I can not renew my BasicMed at some point, and keep on flying??? Sure seems like it, but you'd then be limited to one passenger and below 10k or 2k agl and whatever other limitations sport pilots have.
PeterRus Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 I have a better question... Does this MOSAIC rule (and consequentially Mooney -> LSA category) mean that for LSA a/c (e.g. Mooney) the high-perf endorsement (200+ hp engine) won't be needed anymore?
Hank Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 1 minute ago, PeterRus said: I have a better question... Does this MOSAIC rule (and consequentially Mooney -> LSA category) mean that for LSA a/c (e.g. Mooney) the high-perf endorsement (200+ hp engine) won't be needed anymore? That's only needed for models K and up; M20 through M20J are 200 or less, the endorsement is for "more than 200 hp."
PeterRus Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 6 minutes ago, Hank said: That's only needed for models K and up; M20 through M20J are 200 or less, the endorsement is for "more than 200 hp." So... With Acclaim Ultra being an LSA a/c -- a PPL can fly it w/o high-perf endorsement?
Hank Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 1 minute ago, PeterRus said: So... With Acclaim Ultra being an LSA a/c -- a PPL can fly it w/o high-perf endorsement? No, that's a V, which comes after J, has ~300 hp and requires the HP Endorsement now. I got mine on a Biennial in a 182, which was easier to fly than my C, so I'm good if my bank account ever gets that big.
PeterRus Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 1 minute ago, Hank said: No, that's a V, which comes after J, has ~300 hp and requires the HP Endorsement now. I am not sure I explain it properly: the new MOSAIS rule for LSA will classify many a/c (if not most) as LSA. Many, if not all Moonies (A through V) are/will be LSA aircraft. Hence, a PPL can now fly aircraft with 200+ hp engine w/o high-perf endorsement.
LardLad Posted July 22 Author Report Posted July 22 I've got a question for the CFIs around here. There was a cfi-s that nobody ever really used before because only training sport pilots would be weird. As far as I can tell from a glance at the cfr( https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-61/subpart-K ) you didn't need a commercial license or even a medical to get rated as a cfi-s? Am I reading this right, that now a cfi-s will be able to teach in a Mooney or Cessna without getting a commercial rating or second class medical first?
TangoTango Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 The lack of clarifying information released with this rule change is a bit frustrating. Page 136 may turn out to be the fly in the ointment. If I'm reading section 9 on that page correctly, only newly produced aircraft count? I'm not sure if that provision is only in reference to repairman certificates, or if it also applies to whether they can be operated under LSA rules.
Rick Junkin Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 1 hour ago, Hank said: The clean stall speed of my C is 64 mph = 55.6 knots. Does this mean that I can not renew my BasicMed at some point, and keep on flying??? It does, but you would be limited to Sport Pilot operating limitations. Get really familiar with those before you decide to drop basic med. For instance, you can't fly IFR as a sport pilot, you can't go above 10,000', and you can't fly at night without an endorsement. It may be a little fuzzy holding a PPL and operating to SP limits as to what documentation/endorsements are really required. 1
EricJ Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 4 minutes ago, TangoTango said: The lack of clarifying information released with this rule change is a bit frustrating. Page 136 may turn out to be the fly in the ointment. If I'm reading section 9 on that page correctly, only newly produced aircraft count? I'm not sure if that provision is only in reference to repairman certificates, or if it also applies to whether they can be operated under LSA rules. That's my reading of multiple instances in the document: existing legacy aircraft do not convert to the new category. A manufacturer can apply to have a new aircraft certificated under the new rules. Existing Cessnas, Pipers, and Mooneys do not currently qualify as explained in the document. 3
LardLad Posted July 22 Author Report Posted July 22 7 minutes ago, EricJ said: existing legacy aircraft do not convert to the new category That's definitely right, you can't change the certification of your plane. But LSA pilots operating without a medical right now can fly a J-3 cub because it falls inside the restrictions for light sport pilots. It will be the same as that, flying a Mooney under the same old certification and maintenance requirements but without the need for a medical and some different limitations.
Hank Posted July 22 Report Posted July 22 1 hour ago, LardLad said: . . . flying a Mooney under the same old certification and maintenance requirements but without the need for a medical and some different limitations. Yes, that's right. Our Mooneys will not become Light Sport Aircraft, but Sport Pilots will be able to fly them with additional training to raise and lower the gear. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2025/july/22/light-sport-rules-expand-dramatically?utm_source=epilot&utm_medium=email
TangoTango Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 After reading and rereading the final rule, I think only the 59KCAS clean stall speed applies to a pilot exercising sport pilot privileges (ie a PPL holder operating with a driver's license as a medical). This is part of the new 14 CFR 61.316, which describes aircraft a sport pilot can operate, and only mentions the 59KCAS Vs1. This would allow Hank's C model, but it puts my 2900# J over the limit. The more permissive 61KCAS dirty stall speed only appears in the new 14 CFR 22.100, which describes the criteria for certifying new airplanes as LSA. As we've already determined, we cannot convert our normal category airworthiness certificates to light sport airworthiness certificates, even though a new airplane built after the regulation could be exactly the same and get certified this way. Since these new aircraft cannot be operated by sport pilots unless they also meet 14 CFR 61.316, I guess this rule just helps manufacturers by reducing regulatory overhead? It should also make the repairman certificate more valuable if manufacturers start producing these "big LSA". ... I wish they would've just picked one light sport standard. Having two makes the term more confusing than it needs to be.
LardLad Posted July 23 Author Report Posted July 23 Article on kitplanes.com says the same: While a new airplane can be certificated as an LSA with a stall speed up to 61 knots VS0, a Sport Pilot is limited to flying airplanes with a maximum stall speed of 59 knots in the clean configuration (VS1). This means that some newly designed, higher-performance LSAs may require a pilot to hold a private pilot certificate or higher to legally fly them. 1
kortopates Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 That's my reading of multiple instances in the document: existing legacy aircraft do not convert to the new category. A manufacturer can apply to have a new aircraft certificated under the new rules. Existing Cessnas, Pipers, and Mooneys do not currently qualify as explained in the document. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MikeOH Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 As always, who determines who flys what, is going to be decided, in practice,, by the INSURANCE COMPANIES! 2
EricJ Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 I suspect that an eventual result of all this, assuming small GA stays viable at all, is that most of our Mooneys will likely lose value as the new high-performance, 4-place LSAs with retractable gear and constant speed props (or similarly desirable LSA airplanes) become more available. 2
Hank Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 49 minutes ago, EricJ said: . . . as the new high-performance, 4-place LSAs with retractable gear and constant speed props (or similarly desirable LSA airplanes) become more available. I'm not worrying about the effect(s) on my Mooney of new aircraft that still.need to be designed, approved, funded, built, tested, certificated, ordered by customers then put into production profitably. 1
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