Making metal. Here we go.. into the abyss....

[jetdriven]

Engine is 1335 SMOH in 2001.  The airplane is getting a pretty much FWF overhaul.  Redone engine mount, new vac pump, OH magneto, fuel pumo, new hoses, rubber mounts.  Alreafy had new alt.

[PTK]

Excellent choice Byron. Congratulations!

When you say reground flat lifters killed your engine what do you mean? Was the previous oh a field oh to service limits?

[jetdriven]

You can rre-machine everything in the engine and assemble it to new limits.  I have no idea what limits our engine was assembled to. It was running excellent right up until the lifters spalled out and ruined everything.  I am convinced it would still be running today had they used new ones.

[N601RX]

It seems to me like corrosion and lack of use in the 2 years before you purchased it played a larger part in the failure that the Reground lifters.  Corrosion does not discriminate between new and used parts. Didn't you mention earlier that the cylinders were pitted also?  

[PTK]

Quote: jetdriven

You can rre-machine everything in the engine and assemble it to new limits.  I have no idea what limits our engine was assembled to. It was running excellent right up until the lifters spalled out and ruined everything.  I am convinced it would still be running today had they used new ones.

[jetdriven]

Yes, the cylinder we paid the superstar (dumbshit) mechanic to remove was pretty heavily pitted.  Which means either he missed it, or he deliberately lied about it.

The thign I dont get, is it was flown infrequently but still flown. We have flown it 240 hours since purchase. Lifter failure happens quicker than that.  Had to be a factor, though.

[N601RX]

My opinion is that sitting for a month or so under bad environmental conditions would be all that it takes to start the corrosion.  Once started, its a non reversible process and the engine's hours are numbered.  The engine dehudmifers that you insert throught the oil dipstick seem like a good idea to me.

[jetdriven]

Right.  So every time your airplane sits for 30 days, and it will, you are rolling the dice on having to buy a new engine for it.   I also have a hard time believeing that it took 18 months and 240 hours to manifest itself. If it didnt, then we had cam failure on an airplane that flew every 7 days, ten at most.

If roller lifters mitigate this risk by half, its worth the 3K extra it's going to cost. Given that nobody can produce one failed roller cam/lifter combo, it appears to be a far better solution.  I know Ed Kollin has the phto of a pitted roller cam.  Where it came from, how long it sat, etc is not well known. I bet it would also run another 500-700 hours like that.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: jetdriven

Tomorrow we order an IO-360-A3B6D for 29,150 plus shipping from Lycoming.  All in is 29,875.  If yuo say it 3 times in a row, it doesnt sound too bad.  REGROUND flat lifters killed our engine at 1325 hours and we flew it every week. Musta been that damned LOP and oversquare.   Never again.   That said, I would rather have a garage oerhaul to service limits with roller lifters than a FOH with flat lifters. I think that is all that matters for bottom longevity.  If I live long enough, Charlie can OH our roller motor.  Likely someone else will own it, he can overhaul my Bonanza motor.

[N601RX]

Ours mostly sit for several year and was then flown for about 35 hrs.  We originally pulled the cylinders due to high oil consumption and found broke rings.  At 35 hrs the spalling was still minor but present.  I sold the old cam Romans and he reground it and told me cleaned up and kept the min base circle. There was also corosion on the wristpins, lifter bodies, geartrain and a couple of repairable spots on the crank. They blended them back in and renitrided it.  The corrosion was starting to take its toll on the crank gear and fuel pump gear/cam lobe also.  He rejected the crankgear for wear/ corrosion, and lifters and wristpins because of corosion. 

If an engine corrodes, I don't think it will make it to TBO regardess of the lifters used. I agree with you that they may run a few hundred hours longer than a flat tapet in the corroded state.  By lycomings definition any internal part with corosion is unairworthy.

[jetdriven]

Quote: N4352H

jetdriven Re: Musta been that damned LOP and oversquare.   Never again.

Well, you'll never find absolution for the engine going bad. My make? Disuse followed by "spritited" use.

jetdriven Re: That said, I would rather have a garage oerhaul to service limits with roller lifters than a FOH with flat lifters. I think that is all that matters for bottom longevity.

Anybody south of the Mason Dixon Line to west Texas is at a greater risk for cam and lifter pitting and spalling at a far excellerated rate. I'd go with the roller lifters/tappets.

You and Cruiser are dedicated LOP operators, who both fly a lot and both will now have new engines. Cruiser is ahead of you by a couple of hundred hours. I will be interested to see how things shake out within only a few years. Great test cell operators.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: jetdriven

The engine is certified to run at 100% power with no time limit, forever.

[N33GG]

Quote: jetdriven

Tomorrow we order an IO-360-A3B6D for 29,150 plus shipping from Lycoming.  All in is 29,875.  If yuo say it 3 times in a row, it doesnt sound too bad.  REGROUND flat lifters killed our engine at 1325 hours and we flew it every week. Musta been that damned LOP and oversquare.   Never again.   That said, I would rather have a garage oerhaul to service limits with roller lifters than a FOH with flat lifters. I think that is all that matters for bottom longevity.  If I live long enough, Charlie can OH our roller motor.  Likely someone else will own it, he can overhaul my Bonanza motor.

[Becca]

Quote: OR75

just curious to hear what the process is and how long it is. do you send the engine first and receive new one ?

also, will you change the rubber engine mounts biscuits (if they need to)? 

 

[Becca]

Quote: N4352H

 

I am unclear. Is the engine not generating power? Has it siezed or was it symptomatic? Has it been declared unairworthy with failure imminent? (I read back the thread and didn't see this). Your bore scope didn't look good, but was something broken? Waiting and montioring metal content is a common practice (paticularly with the TSIO-520...the engine you improperly use as a 50ROP poster child, when the real issue with the engine is it's horsepower rating). I know of one Malibu shop, where they wait, watch, monitor the metal content, sometimes for 100's of hours until somebody makes a call.

Point is, you know your eventuality, but do you have time?

[OR75]

thanks for the info on the process of O/H with lycoming. why is it so long ? 4  to 5 weeks seems like a long time. you would think they have an A3B6D almost ready to ship. or do they overhaul your own engine ?

 

[jetdriven]

Quote: OR75

thanks for the info on the process of O/H with lycoming. why is it so long ? 4  to 5 weeks seems like a long time. you would think they have an A3B6D almost ready to ship. or do they overhaul your own engine ?

 

[jetdriven]

cross-post with teardown photos on page 1 bottom.  

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=3&threadid=5234

 

 

EDIT:  FIXED IT

[FlyDave]

Quote: jetdriven

cross-post with teardown photos on page 1 bottom.  

http://mooneyspace.org/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=3&threadid=5234&postid=67572&page=1#post67572

 

[danb35]

Quote: FlyDave

DANGER DANGER DANGER!!!!

[FlyDave]

Quote: danb35

Well, if it's a fake, it's a pretty good one, and it duplicates at least quite a bit of the content of the forums.  Or maybe, just maybe, mooneyspace.com and mooneyspace.org are the same site.  After all, about 5 seconds of checking with whois shows that they're both owned by Craig McGregor.  Don't you think you should do a little fact checking before posting so... um... assertively?

[fantom]

So you're going for a factory O/H rather than a factory reman, so no 'o' logbook, but you save about 3 grand. It's a fair chance the engine will be equal, either way.

I wonder if Lycoming will O/H someone's existing engine, and how much additional time that would require.

Did you look into Ney Nozzles? http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp

[donshapansky]

If you don't go with the roller tappet mod I believe the Firewall Forward STC is very close to offering the same reliability. My Aerostar has this STC done by the gurus at Lycon Rebuilders in CA. The documents with this STC state that during the testing phase the failure rate of standard cam lobes was established at 35% and the official reduction with direct lube on each lobe after the mod was 2%! The Beechcraft Duke engines were notorius for cam issues and the STC has vitrually eliminated this malady on the Duke engine (380 hp @ 2900 rpm 45" MAP)

[Bennett]

I had a Lycon engine overhaul on my old Cessna, and the engine ran perfectly for the two years I owned her - about 250 hours. No complaints, no squawks. They seem to be a reliable rebuilder. I also had LASAR build a custom engine for my 261 conversion, and that engine was also perfect for the years I owned her (once I got rid of the mineral oil break-in oil - story posted on another thread). Air West in San Carlos rebuilt two engines for the Piper 235 and the Piper 180 I was a partener in several years ago. Not bad, but there was some minor warranty work which they did without protest.  There are some decent shops that can rebuild an engine at lower cost than a factory new or rebuild, but of course, no "zero" time engine for resale value.  Really hard to decide the best path, but I have had good luck with field rebuilds.  

[Skybrd]

I am about ready to pick up my airplane after a engine swap including getting the governor rebuilt, minor rigging fix and installing a EI engine monitor. My new engine is from Texas Airpower and has the 2 independant magnetos. The cost to exchange and do the other work cost a fortune. Airpower engine was not cheap either but seemed the best route to go. I doubt if I can sell my plane for the amount I've invested. It recently had a paint job and new windows at Santa Maria. I guess our airplanes are like boats with unlimited costs. How much did you pay to get your engine swapped (labor and accessories)? Mine is over 10k.