Fix or part out

[BS20E]

I have a problem that I would like help with. I had a minor prop strike which resulted in new prop and engine tear down . Insurance paid for labor and new prop but the engine came back with no damage from the strike but needed extensive repairs about 45000 worth. My plane is a 1966 Mooney M20E with 3600 total hours, it has had the tanks resealed and other upgrades. I was wondering if it would be better to sale as is or part out or fixe the engine? I was already thinking of selling before the strike. Any ideas would greatly appreciated.

[LANCECASPER]

5 minutes ago, BS20E said:

I have a problem that I would like help with. I had a minor prop strike which resulted in new prop and engine tear down . Insurance paid for labor and new prop but the engine came back with no damage from the strike but needed extensive repairs about 45000 worth. My plane is a 1966 Mooney M20E with 3600 total hours, it has had the tanks resealed and other upgrades. I was wondering if it would be better to sale as is or part out or fixe the engine? I was already thinking of selling before the strike. Any ideas would greatly appreciated.

$45000 or $4500? How many hours total time on the engine?

I would have thought you could have completely rebuilt an IO-360 for $45,000. 

Some pictures of the airplane would help so we could get an idea of the value.

[Fly Boomer]

22 minutes ago, BS20E said:

needed extensive repairs about 45000

What did it need?  $45K is a staggering number for no prop strike damage but "oh, by the way, you need a few other things".

[Shadrach]

A Lycoming Factory Overhaul from AirPower is $43,830 so I’m guessing that $45,000 is a typo. 

$4500 is chump change to have an IRAN’d engine that will likely run 2000hrs + if well cared for. 

Need more details to give a meaningful analysis of your situation.

[BS20E]

37 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

$45000 or $4500? How many hours total time on the engine?

I would have thought you could have completely rebuilt an IO-360 for $45,000. 

Some pictures of the airplane would help so we could get an idea of the value.

I sent the engine to Pinnacle Aircraft Engines for a strike inspection. He did that and went ahead and started work on it without informing me. Now I have an engine tore apart and a bill for 10500 . Lycoming won’t take unless it is put back together and he refuses to reassemble.

[BS20E]

25 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

What did it need?  $45K is a staggering number for no prop strike damage but "oh, by the way, you need a few other things".

I didn’t need anything else this coming out of my pocket.

[BS20E]

55 minutes ago, BS20E said:

I have a problem that I would like help with. I had a minor prop strike which resulted in new prop and engine tear down . Insurance paid for labor and new prop but the engine came back with no damage from the strike but needed extensive repairs about 45000 worth. My plane is a 1966 Mooney M20E with 3600 total hours, it has had the tanks resealed and other upgrades. I was wondering if it would be better to sale as is or part out or fixe the engine? I was already thinking of selling before the strike. Any ideas would greatly appreciated.

 

[BS20E]

33 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

What did it need?  $45K is a staggering number for no prop strike damage but "oh, by the way, you need a few other things".

[BS20E]

11 minutes ago, BS20E said:

I sent the engine to Pinnacle Aircraft Engines for a strike inspection. He did that and went ahead and started work on it without informing me. Now I have an engine tore apart and a bill for 10500 . Lycoming won’t take unless it is put back together and he refuses to reassemble.

 

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, BS20E said:

I didn’t need anything else this coming out of my pocket.

I don’t mean to offend, but this answer makes clear that this is an emotional decision rather than a logical one. It’s an inanimate object with the engine torn apart.
 

That has nothing to do with what “you” need.

it’s about the best course of action moving forward to minimize your financial pain. No one will be able to help with that if you do not provide details as to what’s going on with the engine.

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

So $10,500 is everything that it needs?

 

Just noticed the invoice. The insurance company paid for the teardown, right?

Can the case not be repaired? No one I know of buys a new case - they get theirs repaired or buy a serviceable case.

Can the cylinders not be overhauled?

[Shadrach]

OK now I understand. This is a difficult situation. Unauthorized work always is. Where is the airframe located?
where is the closest engine shop to your location?  
Insurance should have covered anything damaged by the prop strike. The invoice does not seem to differentiate between damage and wear items.

[BS20E]

7 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

So $10,500 is everything that it needs?

 

Just noticed the invoice. The insurance company paid for the teardown, right?

Can the case not be repaired? No one I know of buys a new case - they get theirs repaired or buy a serviceable case.

Can the cylinders not be overhauled?

He says we might find a case used for half priced maybe , haven’t asked about the cylinders 

[BS20E]

3 minutes ago, BS20E said:

He says we might find a case used for half priced maybe , haven’t asked about the cylinders 

Insurance paid for the inspection 

[Shadrach]

Just now, BS20E said:

He says we might find a case used for half priced maybe , haven’t asked about the cylinders 

 

Just now, BS20E said:

He says we might find a case used for half priced maybe , haven’t asked about the cylinders 

My Bull$hit detector is screaming.  Cases can be overhauled and cracks repaired.  Cylinders that were previously operating just fine don't just fail. 

[Shadrach]

@kortopates does savvy take on new customers while they are in a dispute with a shop?

 

@BS20E If it were me, I would contact a lawyer about the best method for retrieving my unassembled property immediately and with as little notice to the shop as possible. I don't know that this shop is being unscrupulous, but so many things stink about this.  You're ostensibly being forced into a field overhaul that is more expensive than a factory overhaul exchange even with insurance paying for the teardown. 

[BS20E]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

@kortopates does savvy take on new customers while they are in a dispute with a shop?

 

@BS20E If it were me, I would contact a lawyer about the best method for retrieving my unassembled property immediately and with as little notice to the shop as possible. I don't know that this shop is being unscrupulous, but so many things stink about this.  You're ostensible being forced into a field overhaul that is more expensive than a factory overhaul exchange even with insurance paying for the teardown. 

Is there any lawyers that I could hire? All I can find is injury lawyers.

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, BS20E said:

Is there any lawyers that I could hire? All I can find is injury lawyers.

Did the shop communicate in detail the issues with your crank, cam, cylinders, fuel servo, crank case, lifters, gears in the accessory case etc?  I had my engine torn down for a case crack year ago.  We had a very in depth discussion about the condition of the internals the same day that the case was split.  Your description reads like the shop just elected to do a field overhaul without your consent or consultation.  There are two side to every story.  Did he not disclose any of this to you before beginning the work?

 

[LANCECASPER]

I wouldn't go the lawyer route yet. I would make a trip over to see the engine and print out this page (https://pinnacleaircraftengines.com/engine-repairs/) off of their website where they say:

• Once initial inspection is complete, customers will receive a visual and written inspection report of our findings. At this point, customers have the option to approve the repair as required or have the option to upgrade to an overhaul.

So yes, after their inspection you have two options: repair or overhaul. But, line by line, in-person, go over what your options are.

You have a very well-kept E. The good news is that the insurance should be paying for removing and re-installing your engine and splitting it and inspecting. By the time you go over your options on each part mentioned you might find that you get an overhaul at a much better price than you could have otherwise. Or you might find that a repair isn't nearly as expensive as what you now think it will be. But there's definitely some miscommunication going on. Sitting down calmly in person will get you much further than threatening lawyers.

[N201MKTurbo]

It looks like he is doing an overhaul, not an inspection and repair as necessary. 

It actually looks like he is building a new engine from scratch. It seems strange that he wants to replace all the gears. Lycoming doesn't even do that with their factory reman. When I did my engine, I just took them to the local engine shop for NDT and inspection. 

The last time I had an IO-360 disassembled inspected and reassembled, the shop charged me $2700. That included new rings and gaskets. That was 25 years ago and I was friends with the shop owner.

[LANCECASPER]

46 minutes ago, BS20E said:

He says we might find a case used for half priced maybe , haven’t asked about the cylinders 

There's $5500 right there, now ask how much to have Divco repair your case.

It's common when you're in the middle of something like this to have paralysis when it comes to know what to do. It hits you by surprise. But remove yourself from the situation and just approach it methodically, part by part. Go there looking and acting your best. No one minds dealing with someone reasonable. No one wants to deal with someone who acts on emotion and is not acting reasonably and starts threatening the worst.

If need be, let them know this completely caught you by surprise and you'll have to figure out how to handle whatever absolutely needs to be done financially, but you want to work with them.

You may be pleasantly surprised by their professionalism and the quality of their shop. You can't always tell for sure, but their website gives the impression of a shop that knows what they are doing.

[BS20E]

26 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

@kortopates does savvy take on new customers while they are in a dispute with a shop?

 

@BS20E If it were me, I would contact a lawyer about the best method for retrieving my unassembled property immediately and with as little notice to the shop as possible. I don't know that this shop is being unscrupulous, but so many things stink about this.  You're ostensible being forced into a field overhaul that is more expensive than a factory overhaul exchange even with insurance paying for the teardown. 

 

7 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Did the shop communicate in detail the issues with your crank, cam, cylinders, fuel servo, crank case, lifters, gears in the accessory case etc?  I had my engine torn down for a case crack year ago.  We had a very in depth discussion about the condition of the internals the same day that the case was split.  Your description reads like the shop just elected to do a field overhaul without your consent or consultation.  There are two side to every story.  Did he not disclose any of this to you before beginning the work?

 

He did not discuss anything or contact me before he started sending parts out for repairs. They is not for an overhaul. The amount for overhaul was 56,623.23

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, BS20E said:

I didn’t need anything else this coming out of my pocket.

I'm having trouble understanding how you got to this point.  Maybe the engine shop asked if you would like a major overhaul, and you agreed?  Before the prop strike, was it a high time engine with low compression, high oil consumption, excessive blow-by, broken rings, cracked cylinder heads, overheating due to bad baffles and baffle seals, oil leaking from a cracked case, oil analysis indicating spalled lifters and cam damage, etc.?  If you had some or all of those problems prior to the prop strike, I can understand wanting and needing a major overhaul.  Many owners do opt for a major overhaul while the engine is torn down because it can save some money.  This situation does not sound like it's going to save money.

[BS20E]

15 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

There's $5500 right there, now ask how much to have Divco repair your case.

It's common when you're in the middle of something like this to have paralysis when it comes to know what to do. It hits you by surprise. But remove yourself from the situation and just approach it methodically, part by part. Go there looking and acting your best. No one minds dealing with someone reasonable. No one wants to deal with someone who acts on emotion and is not acting reasonably and starts threatening the worst.

If need be, let them know this completely caught you by surprise and you'll have to figure out how to handle whatever absolutely needs to be done financially, but you want to work with them.

You may be pleasantly surprised by their professionalism and the quality of their shop. You can't always tell for sure, but their website gives the impression of a shop that knows what they are doing.

The only thing I have said to them is that I wish you had contacted me before you started work on it. His reply was that he had to go ahead and get stuff started because it so long to get things done. I then told him to discontinue any further repairs till I can figure out what to do. That’s the only conversation we have had. I can’t afford to fix it at 45000 to 56000.

[Shadrach]

7 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I wouldn't go the lawyer route yet. I would make a trip over to see the engine and print out this page (https://pinnacleaircraftengines.com/engine-repairs/) off of their website where they say:

• Once initial inspection is complete, customers will receive a visual and written inspection report of our findings. At this point, customers have the option to approve the repair as required or have the option to upgrade to an overhaul.

So yes, after their inspection you have two options: repair or overhaul. But, line by line, in-person, go over what your options are.

You have a very well-kept E. The good news is that the insurance should be paying for removing and re-installing your engine and splitting it and inspecting. By the time you go over your options on each part mentioned you might find that you get an overhaul at a much better price than you could have otherwise. Or you might find that a repair isn't nearly as expensive as what you now think it will be. But there's definitely some miscommunication going on. Sitting down calmly in person will get you much further than threatening lawyers.

I appreciate your  push for a calm tone, and perhaps there is indeed more to this story.  However, if this shop has initiated $10,500 of work without communicating with the owner, I question the notion that they are suddenly going to find their ethics and come to the table.  This has all of the elements of a hostage negotiation. I don't think he should have a Lawyer contact them. I think he should have a lawyer help him use the proper channels to remove his property from the shop ASAP.  The removal needs to take place with as little warning as possible and under supervision.  I would sooner take a crate of parts to another shop than do business with someone that treated me this way.