Divert or valve on tsio360

[Arthur]

When the prime is activated  the pump is energized but the diverter valve is not. Anyone know if there is a relay between the prime switch and the valve?

[Guest]

There is an SB from Continental to remove the valve.

Clarence

[Arthur]

41 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

There is an SB from Continental to remove the valve.

Clarence

Thank you Clarance. This is a reinstall of an overhaul after a prop strike.The ai said the valve would not energize. Maybe that’s why. Not my usual guy and more a cirrus guy than a Mooney man

[Guest]

Here’s the SB, for him.

http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/CSB19-01A.pdf

Clarence

[lvpazik]

Just got my M20K out of annual. There is a "Critical Service Bulletin" issued by Continental to remove the diverter. I have attached the bulletin and picture.....my question to qualified A&P's out there that know this engine is:  I had a local Mooney dealer adjust the fuel flows/pressures during the annual. The diverter was removed afterwards. Would removal of the diverter affect the fuel setup?  I only ask because a cold start on this engine is now extremely difficult. Anyway for purposes of this response, see the Continental bulletin I am attaching.

HNDLibraryPrint2_002158.pdf

[Warren]

Removing the diverted valve means that priming now happens through the injectors instead of nozzles in the intake. On mine it was slightly different after the removal. I found a little extra prime helped. I wait until I see fuel flow to start counting seconds of prime. 

Fuel pressures from the system setup should not change with the removal of the diverted valve.  It is easy for a shop to check the pressures if you are suspicious. 

[kortopates]

On 12/2/2021 at 6:59 PM, lvpazik said:

Just got my M20K out of annual. There is a "Critical Service Bulletin" issued by Continental to remove the diverter. I have attached the bulletin and picture.....my question to qualified A&P's out there that know this engine is:  I had a local Mooney dealer adjust the fuel flows/pressures during the annual. The diverter was removed afterwards. Would removal of the diverter affect the fuel setup?  I only ask because a cold start on this engine is now extremely difficult. Anyway for purposes of this response, see the Continental bulletin I am attaching.

NDLibraryPrint2_002158.pdf 2.08 MB · 3 downloads

You're a little late dealing with this. Its been out there for awhile (2019) and this is the second version. But glad you got it done before the diverter caused you a big problem. But perhaps most likely you're a recent purchaser that just inherited deferred maintenance.

Bur no, absolutely no effects on the fuel setup.  

That said, the diverter valve's purpose was to aid in cold starts, very cold starts though. Cold enough you should also be using an engine heater. And when cold they need more fuel so be sure your giving it enough fuel to start and thus you might try some experimenting after reviewing the table of recommends seconds of prime based on temperature.

I hope you enjoy your 231.

[lvpazik]

Thanks for response Paul. This is my second Mooney and I never skip on maintenance, quite the opposite. I purchased June 2020 and had a full annual performed in Florida by a shop that does primarily Mooney's.  They didn't catch it and the local shop only caught it because #3 cylinder after the annual was quickly overheating during run up at take off power. They had a heck of a time figuring it out and even contacted Continental to discuss, and that's when Continental told them of the critical bulletin which I of course authorized. Turns out the #3 cylinder had cracked which was weird. WE lost #1 in flight, replaced it and I had #3 and #5 rebuilt at same time. Flew it over an hour from where it broke down to the local shop here for a check out and then annual inspection. First time we went to fly it from the shop after inspection, my pilot who was flying it when we lost #1 did the ground run to make sure everything was ok and low and behold all of a sudden #3, which was fine when we brought it there, was cracked.  Now I've got her home after being in the shop for months and starting it "cold", is a real bear. We've got to keep hitting the primer button, the "low boost" button quickly seems to flood it so back to the primer button and we have to get it up to 1700 rpm initially to keep it running. So frustrating to me!! I've attached a video he took while starting it last night to bring it home. You can hear it struggling and I believe you can see/hear him frequently hitting the primer button to get the darn thing running while he's trying to get it to "catch".....frustrating.

[kortopates]

16 hours ago, lvpazik said:

Thanks for response Paul. This is my second Mooney and I never skip on maintenance, quite the opposite. I purchased June 2020 and had a full annual performed in Florida by a shop that does primarily Mooney's.  They didn't catch it and the local shop only caught it because #3 cylinder after the annual was quickly overheating during run up at take off power. They had a heck of a time figuring it out and even contacted Continental to discuss, and that's when Continental told them of the critical bulletin which I of course authorized. Turns out the #3 cylinder had cracked which was weird. WE lost #1 in flight, replaced it and I had #3 and #5 rebuilt at same time. Flew it over an hour from where it broke down to the local shop here for a check out and then annual inspection. First time we went to fly it from the shop after inspection, my pilot who was flying it when we lost #1 did the ground run to make sure everything was ok and low and behold all of a sudden #3, which was fine when we brought it there, was cracked.  Now I've got her home after being in the shop for months and starting it "cold", is a real bear. We've got to keep hitting the primer button, the "low boost" button quickly seems to flood it so back to the primer button and we have to get it up to 1700 rpm initially to keep it running. So frustrating to me!! I've attached a video he took while starting it last night to bring it home. You can hear it struggling and I believe you can see/hear him frequently hitting the primer button to get the darn thing running while he's trying to get it to "catch".....frustrating.

I'd suggest reviewing your invoice to see if they installed the newer style cylinder drains P/N 655742 on all 6 cylinders. Its possible if its was more recently overhauled then it already has these drains, but more likely not. The newer style drains are part of the CSB and allow more prime fuel into the cylinders before it drains out. Important since the priming system no longer injects fuel into the upper induction tubes but directly into the cylinders via the fuel injectors. If priming fuel is quickly going overboard it suggest you may still have the old style cylinder drains which only allow about half the priming fuel before it drains out. If you don't find the new style part no in your invoice suggest you pull one of them to confirm the part # and if not the new style then you'll wan to order them. But this is just my guess, since it should be starting normally. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by kortopates

[NicoN]

Our M20K is getting this assembly removed now.

The service bulleting says something that "partial or total power loss" can be caused by this assembly.

But - I do  not find an explanation why that can happen.

Also, do we have to change our cranking procedure?#

So far, we were using the High boost pump for priming, as this avoids the engine dying right after starting.

 

 

[Aerodon]

3 hours ago, NicoN said:

Our M20K is getting this assembly removed now.

The service bulleting says something that "partial or total power loss" can be caused by this assembly.

But - I do  not find an explanation why that can happen.

Also, do we have to change our cranking procedure?#

So far, we were using the High boost pump for priming, as this avoids the engine dying right after starting.

 

 

The diverter valve turns off fuel to the fuel control unit and injectors and re-routes it to a priming nozzle in the manifold.  So an inadvertent operation or partial failure of the unit itself causes big problems.

The 'new way' is to prime directly through the injectors, which intuitively seems to be a much better way of getting fuel to all cylinders.  But make sure you have the new style drain valves, my understating is they prevent hydraulic locking if you overprime.

One less item to fail or maintain.

Aerodon

[NicoN]

Okay.

Procedure is done - at least most of it.

Our A/P told me yesterday, that he found 2 of the new style ("punched") drain connetors, while others are not.

He also said that he couldn't replace them, because there is no P/N available.

Hmm.

According to the SB it is "655742", while the old-style have a different number.

Can this be a problem to fly with 4 old-styles -at least for a while until the next scheduled maintenance?

Sounds that there is a certain risk for damaging the engine while priming.

Our starting technique so far was using the high boost pump for 8-10s with throttle and mixture wide open.

And this worked normally perfect - at least better than using the primer button.

Do we have to change something?

[81X]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:59 PM, lvpazik said:

Just got my M20K out of annual. There is a "Critical Service Bulletin" issued by Continental to remove the diverter. I have attached the bulletin and picture.....my question to qualified A&P's out there that know this engine is:  I had a local Mooney dealer adjust the fuel flows/pressures during the annual. The diverter was removed afterwards. Would removal of the diverter affect the fuel setup?  I only ask because a cold start on this engine is now extremely difficult. Anyway for purposes of this response, see the Continental bulletin I am attaching.

HNDLibraryPrint2_002158.pdf 2.08 MB · 18 downloads

For a cold start after the SB on my TSIO360LB, I do this:

1. Throttle and mixture at idle and cutoff. 

2. run high boost for 5-7 seconds (pressurize lines and purge any vapor, works well in the continental constant flow system)

3. Throttle and mixture to the forward stops (ope/rich)

4. Prime for temperature- 3-4 seconds in summer/ 70 degrees, 6-8 in winter for 35 or below.  

5. Wait 10-30 seconds then move the throttle position back to roughly the 1500RPM position (maybe helps with fuel atomization? that’s my theory) 

6. Crank the engine and throttle back to 11-1200 RPM as the engine catches 

7. Unfortunately I have to run mine at 1000-1200 for a minute or two until warm enough, but after this, mixture super lean (not too lean past a smooth running engine) and 1000 rpm or so. 

Works nearly 100% of the time for me. Hot start procedure is different. 

[PeteMc]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:39 PM, Warren said:

I found a little extra prime helped.

Extra prime?  I was advised by my mechanic back when they did the SB to use MUCH LESS prime since fuel was going into all of the cylinders.  He also mentioned that the Prime button and the High Boost now did the same thing. 

My priming is basically the same as @81X though I may only wait 10-20 seconds vs a full 30.  Also agree with leaning as much as possible. 

Note for those that only lean a little....  Aggressive leaning will prevent you from every taking off while still lean.  The engine just will not produce TO power if fully leaned for idle power.  You can still taxi, but engine just won't go full throttle. 

 

[81X]

7 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Extra prime?  I was advised by my mechanic back when they did the SB to use MUCH LESS prime since fuel was going into all of the cylinders.  He also mentioned that the Prime button and the High Boost now did the same thing. 

My priming is basically the same as @81X though I may only wait 10-20 seconds vs a full 30.  Also agree with leaning as much as possible. 

Note for those that only lean a little....  Aggressive leaning will prevent you from every taking off while still lean.  The engine just will not produce TO power if fully leaned for idle power.  You can still taxi, but engine just won't go full throttle. 

 

I still use the same amount of prime as before and after the SB.  While this is correct that prime is basically just High Boost sending fuel to the cylinders opposed to the intake manifold, it still is more or less sending the same amount of fuel to the engine for every second of prime.  

[Aerodon]

On 12/2/2021 at 3:22 PM, M20Doc said:

Here’s the SB, for him.

http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/CSB19-01A.pdf

Clarence

Clarence,

So I had the wrong drain valves installed and found a set of used drain valves off some old cylinders.  But the tiny hole was never drilled through (we looked carefully on the inside).  Do you think these are a bad batch, or are they not supposed to be drilled through?

Aerodon

 

 

 

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, Aerodon said:

Clarence,

So I had the wrong drain valves installed and found a set of used drain valves off some old cylinders.  But the tiny hole was never drilled through (we looked carefully on the inside).  Do you think these are a bad batch, or are they not supposed to be drilled through?

Aerodon

I can't speak to what you got, but they're drains and they need to drain any excess fuel out of the cylinder. Looks like yours has the weep hole on the side.

[Aerodon]

14 hours ago, kortopates said:

I can't speak to what you got, but they're drains and they need to drain any excess fuel out of the cylinder. Looks like yours has the weep hole on the side.

there's a big hole straight through like the old one.  its the small 'not hole' that i think should be a hole.

 

Aerodon

Edited March 10, 2022 by Aerodon
Typo

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, Aerodon said:

there's a big hole straight through like the old one.  its the small 'note hole' that i think should be a hole.

 

Aerodon

Not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps referring to what TCM calls the "weep hole"? (that is little hole shown in your photo) 

[Aerodon]

15 hours ago, kortopates said:

Not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps referring to what TCM calls the "weep hole"? (that is little hole shown in your photo) 

Paul, the weep hole is not drilled through to the center hole. Don

[gabez]

Can you guys tell from this pic if mine was removed? I am chasing a partial and intermittent fuel flow loss, I don't see any entry in my log book tho but perhaps from this pic someone can tell. 

[Warren]

Yes.  It has been removed.