Dream Panel?

[carusoam]

Pretty snazzy E panel, Discus!

did you remove the vacuum powered step?  Or is it fixed or just hanging?

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

5 hours ago, DXB said:

Awesome panel - congrats!  Are you using the G5 as the IFR backup AI for your Aspen PFD? There was recent discussion on an adjacent thread on whether or not the G5 can back up the Aspen legally.  My avionics guy said nope - yours obviously  thinks otherwise - I'm curious to know anything you might have heard on this.

Dev -- looks like we have some more questions to ask to get an answer on this question about the G5. I will send Trek an email to see if he could shed light on this.

[Marauder]

Here is what I found in the Aspen STC documentation:

[Discus]

38 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Here is what I found in the Aspen STC documentation:

Yup, this checks.  Here is the logic path:  

1. The G-5 does not rely on pitot/static for its ATTITUDE indications. (It has its own AHRS)

2. The G5 does have its own STC.

3. FAR 23.1311 (a), the Aspen Evolution install requires standby attitude indicator with a separate power source (among other things), but it doesn't need to be original equipment.

4.  A 337 removed the vacuum system. 

I'm sure this instillation could be argued back and forth, and the truth is (as told to me by my avionics guy) is that many shops don't like the G5 BECAUSE of its low cost, and try to find excuses not to sell it.  I realize that my argument is clear as mud. And until regs are clarified as EFIS use and vacuum system removal becomes cheaper and more common in GA airplanes, the answer will remain that way.  

I am at least as comfortable flying IFR now as I was with one suction driven AI (actually a lot more), and I have people willing to sign off the instilation. I'll report back if I ever run into any problems, but for now, I'm very happy. 

[Discus]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Pretty snazzy E panel, Discus!

did you remove the vacuum powered step?  Or is it fixed or just hanging?

Best regards,

-a-

Step was gone when I bought the plane.  Owner before me was a speed freak and did all the "go fast" mods available. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by Discus

[Marauder]

Yup, this checks.  Here is the logic path:  
1. The G-5 does not rely on pitot/static for its ATTITUDE indications. (It has its own AHRS)
2. The G5 does have its own STC.
3. FAR 23.1311 (a), the Aspen Evolution install requires standby attitude indicator with a separate power source (among other things), but it doesn't need to be original equipment.
4.  A 337 removed the vacuum system. 
I'm sure this instillation could be argued back and forth, and the truth is (as told to me by my avionics guy) is that many shops don't like the G5 BECAUSE of its low cost, and try to find excuses not to sell it.  I realize that my argument is clear as mud. And until regs are clarified as EFIS use and vacuum system removal becomes cheaper and more common in GA airplanes, the answer will remain that way.  
I am at least as comfortable flying IFR now as I was with one suction driven AI (actually a lot more), and I have people willing to sign off the instilation. I'll report back if I ever run into any problems, but for now, I'm very happy. 

Hey, don't get me wrong, I have been trying to find a way to get a G5 in to do the exact same thing you have done. As an Aspen 2000 owner it makes no sense to me that with two AIs on the Aspens that a G5 can't be the backup to them. ESPECIALLY since they will let the G5 be a primary AI.

I also realize as a long time owner that no two FSDOs are created the same. In NY I had a sub panel built and signed off, only to have the Philly FSDO say it had to be removed.

The G5 does in fact use the airspeed and GPS input with the AHRS for attitude determination. But according to the manual, accuracy although affected, is still valid.



I also know that some people have used the L-3 ESI-500 and the Sandra offerings as backup to the G500, so what you are saying is true. Everything is clear as mud.

After getting the Aspen STC, I am now more concerned about whether the G5 or any other electronic AI can be used in a plane without two electrical systems.

Keep us posted on the experience with the new hardware.


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[Discus]

Will do!

[DXB]

On 12/10/2016 at 9:12 AM, Marauder said:

 

Hey, don't get me wrong, I have been trying to find a way to get a G5 in to do the exact same thing you have done. As an Aspen 2000 owner it makes no sense to me that with two AIs on the Aspens that a G5 can't be the backup to them. ESPECIALLY since they will let the G5 be a primary AI.

I also realize as a long time owner that no two FSDOs are created the same. In NY I had a sub panel built and signed off, only to have the Philly FSDO say it had to be removed.

The G5 does in fact use the airspeed and GPS input with the AHRS for attitude determination. But according to the manual, accuracy although affected, is still valid.



I also know that some people have used the L-3 ESI-500 and the Sandra offerings as backup to the G500, so what you are saying is true. Everything is clear as mud.

After getting the Aspen STC, I am now more concerned about whether the G5 or any other electronic AI can be used in a plane without two electrical systems.

Keep us posted on the experience with the new hardware.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

On 12/10/2016 at 11:49 AM, Discus said:

Will do!

FWIW on Monday I asked the avionics guy in the shop where I am having annual done this year.  He said that he's been installing G5s as backup AIs for Aspen PFDs without any concern at all. Discus and his shop are clearly not alone in their viewpoint that it's fine.  It's starting to feel like I will go this route either when my current aging vac pump poops out or Garmin unlocks the nav functions on the certified G5, whichever comes first.

[Marauder]

FWIW on Monday I asked the avionics guy in the shop where I am having annual done this year.  He said that he's been installing G5s as backup AIs for Aspen PFDs without any concern at all. Discus and his shop are clearly not alone in their viewpoint that it's fine.  It's starting to feel like I will go this route either when my current aging vac pump poops out or Garmin unlocks the nav functions on the certified G5, whichever comes first.

Well Dev, the guy who installed your Aspen says it's not legal. Does anyone have documentation saying it is legal?


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[DXB]

29 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Well Dev, the guy who installed your Aspen says it's not legal. Does anyone have documentation saying it is legal?


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Nope - lost in a grey area as far as I can tell.

[N6758N]

15 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Well Dev, the guy who installed your Aspen says it's not legal. Does anyone have documentation saying it is legal?


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I've been following this thread pretty intently even though I do not have an Aspen or a G5, someday! I have to agree with the shop that did the install on Discus' aircraft. Here is the opinion of an aircraft inspector who deals with FARs and that kind of paperwork crap all day. The Aspen does not explicitly say that a backup electronic attitude indicator cannot be installed, it only states that such an install is not approved under this STC. Cue the G5 STC, this is obviously a separate document that provides its own installation and approval data. The way I read the G5 STC, the system gets its attitude from the inertial sensors, it only uses the pitot/static information to 'beef' up the attitude information displayed. The regs state that a STC cannot interfere with any other installations in the aircraft (other STCS in this case) and I do not see that happening in this example. Again, just my opinion. I like to think I have some knowledge when it comes to all this regulatory BS.

[Marauder]

I've been following this thread pretty intently even though I do not have an Aspen or a G5, someday! I have to agree with the shop that did the install on Discus' aircraft. Here is the opinion of an aircraft inspector who deals with FARs and that kind of paperwork crap all day. The Aspen does not explicitly say that a backup electronic attitude indicator cannot be installed, it only states that such an install is not approved under this STC. Cue the G5 STC, this is obviously a separate document that provides its own installation and approval data. The way I read the G5 STC, the system gets its attitude from the inertial sensors, it only uses the pitot/static information to 'beef' up the attitude information displayed. The regs state that a STC cannot interfere with any other installations in the aircraft (other STCS in this case) and I do not see that happening in this example. Again, just my opinion. I like to think I have some knowledge when it comes to all this regulatory BS.

Read the other G5 thread, Trek from Garmin clarified the situation.


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