OP ED-"Little Timmy Wants to Know Why Nobody Likes Airplanes Anymore?

[flyboy0681]

You collect checks at the beginning of the month for contributing what to society?  Isn't it correct that your job could either be outsourced to India or replaced with a computer?  What precisely do you do that warrants society giving you enough money to buy a house, car, and half a plane?  You seem to hate people who can't defend themselves as being undeserving.  Isn't it fair that you should make the case for your own superiority?

 

I know your response wasn't aimed at me, but boy do I feel the pressure every day as a software developer - and it's a very helpless feeling at that.

 

I was hoping that Obama would follow through with his campaign rhetoric to help save American jobs from outsourcing. In 2010 he did come out with a proposal to tax those companies that deliberately send software jobs overseas, but as expected, the GOP blew it out of the water as a new tax on business. I don't know what the solution is, I really don't.

[DaV8or]

I know your response wasn't aimed at me, but boy do I feel the pressure every day as a software developer - and it's a very helpless feeling at that.

 

I was hoping that Obama would follow through with his campaign rhetoric to help save American jobs from outsourcing. In 2010 he did come out with a proposal to tax those companies that deliberately send software jobs overseas, but as expected, the GOP blew it out of the water as a new tax on business. I don't know what the solution is, I really don't.

 

I don't either. I have tried for decades to convince people to look for "Made in USA" when they buy. I used to go on and on about Japan and then Taiwan. I had no idea that the Juggernaut that is China was just around the corner! To me, it is the only real solution. A consumer driven solution, but it is a seriously loosing battle. Nobody in this country seems to give a rat's ass about anybody else in this country, so they just can't see the value in supporting their fellow American worker and will go for the value proposition every single time.

 

Of course now it is too late. We rarely have a choice to buy American anymore. The best we can do now is go for American brands at least so that at least a portion of the money stays here. It kills me when I see people going down to Harbor Freight to buy a case of $15 angle grinders! We are literally feeding the Chinese military industrial complex as efficiently as we can and when they finally take over the Pacific and start dictating to the rest of the world, people here will say "What happened to us??"

[DaV8or]

.50 cents an hour without the wonderful wage capping mandate. What a joke that statement is.

Dave, I could not agree more that the US needs a thriving middle class and good paying jobs. I disagree 100% that setting a level for a minimum wage, artificially inflating the pay for jobs that require nothing beyond on-the-job training such as food service or WalMart stockers/cashiers is the answer.

All that happens is the price of products increases to offset the increase in wage. Zero sum gain. I look forward to watching the news and hearing about the EarthQuakes in Kansas. It will be a nice change-up from hearing about the perils of living in California.

I look forward to watching the news and having the anchor say "Nothing bad happened in California today"...Is it news? NOPE

 

I don't believe in a mandated minimum wage either. Like I said earlier, what is minimum wage for an area will naturally work itself out between employer and employee. They can only offer so low and get the work done. All raising the mandated minimum wage does is raise all the lower wages a little bit. This expense is passed on to the consumer in wealthy areas and in poorer areas it means less jobs. In wealthier areas in just means a little more money in the pockets of low income workers that then leads to inflation in their local neighborhoods. The net result is they are no better off. In poor areas, it just means more unemployment. Minimum wage legislation is nothing but feel good legislation and vote pandering. It always has been. Yes they can raise the minimum wage and we will survive, most businesses won't go out of business, consumers will suck it up and pay a bit more, but nobody will be any better for it either, except the Democratic party.

[Tom]

MAYBE THEY NEED TO OUTSOURCE BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS MANDATING THAT FLIPPING BURGERS IS A CAREER PATH AND WARRANTS $15-$20 BUCKS AN HOUR...

MINIMUM WAGE. WHAT A JOKE. SUPPLY AND DEMAND SHOULD DICTATE WAGE.

 

You're effectively a clerk who benefits from an under-regulated racketeering industry.  Were a true perfect market system to exist your job wouldn't even exist.  Even as it exists, it contributes nothing and effectively leeches from productive members.  At least the burger flipper contributes something--he or she flips a burger. 

 

The "hate" (i.e. intense or passionate dislike) is represented by time and again disparaging assessments in the value of others who don't meet your definition of "conservative" and/or to people who you see as "enemies" who don't agree with you....who apparently are everyone who you see as benefitting from what you personally define as "socialist" politics.  

[flyboy0681]

You're effectively a clerk who benefits from an under-regulated racketeering industry.  Were a true perfect market system to exist your job wouldn't even exist.  Even as it exists, it contributes nothing and effectively leeches from productive members.  At least the burger flipper contributes something--he or she flips a burger. 

 

 

 

Gentlemen, I love the discussions that have taken place even though I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoints (which is the best part of it). However, insults such as this have no place here. Up to now we've managed to keep the discussions respectful and I want to see it continue that way.

[flyboy0681]

Shadow man just exposes himself for what he is. No need to defend. I welcome the attacks. His arrows are like feathers tickling my ass...

 

Even so, I don't like it when it gets that personal. While I like speaking my mind, the following are out of bounds as far as I'm concerned and not open for discussion: ones faith, the way they raise their kids and what they do for a living.

[Mooneymite]

MAYBE THEY NEED TO OUTSOURCE BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS MANDATING THAT FLIPPING BURGERS IS A CAREER PATH AND WARRANTS $15-$20 BUCKS AN HOUR...

MINIMUM WAGE. WHAT A JOKE. SUPPLY AND DEMAND SHOULD DICTATE WAGE.

 

Scott, this is a simplistic/unrealistic view.

 

I believe in the free market, but anyone who has ever studied the free market realizes that there really is no such thing.  There is only a market free to be manipulated by various factions.  All markets are manipulated; that's their nature....the forces of commerce at work.

 

Labor is a perfect example:  Yes, in theory a "free market" would determine what labor is worth, but there is really not a "free market" with respect to labor...it is HIGHLY manipulated by various factions.

 

In the political arena, the Democrats have opened the flood-gates of immigration to increase its voter base, while the Republicans happily permit the scheme because it assures that there will be an unlimited supply (as in "supply and demand") of cheap labor constantly driving the cost of labor down.  As long as cheap labor pours in at the bottom, it keeps everyone working "cheap".  Republicans and Democrats working together...ain't it great?

[DaV8or]

Boys and Girls here is a clear difference between a socialist and a capitalist:

A Socialist believes that the collective/society dictates what a member may earn

A Capitalist believes that whatever he/she can obtain for a wage and benefits is only defined by his/her willingness to Educate themselves, market themselves, deliver a product/service that is valued and perform.

The sky is the limit...

Or not.

 

Yes, but can you not see that there can be a middle ground? There are certain things that capitalists do very well for society as a whole and there are other things that a federal government can do well for society as a whole. A melding of the two is ideal, but it's the division of tasks that needs to be worked out. IMO, the government has grown too big in recent decades and is over reaching. It needs a scaling back in all departments.

 

This is tough to work out with the left wing folks in our country who believe just the opposite. They feel the government hasn't done enough. They have a list of new things based on whatever Europe is doing. I personally think that America has been an exceptional country precisely because we have not always done what Europe has done. That's not to say that Europeans don't have good ideas that we can capitalize on, they do, but we have to chart our own course, not just copy.

 

Basically what needs to happen is the folks in the middle of the political spectrum need to take their country back. Those on the left side of the isle need to tell their communists and environmental radicals to STFU and those on the right side of the isle need to tell the bible thumpers and tax revolters to STFU and get some work done on compromises that might actually move us forward.

 

Problem is, the folks in the middle don't seem to care as much as those people on the edges and really don't engage much in politics. They seem to be content to be complacent and let things happen to them... until it gets bad. The fact that we have inflammatory and manipulative media at work, doesn't help the situation one iota. You cannot solve real problems with a one, or two sentence sound bite. The world is not black and white, all or nothing. The problems are complex and likely the solutions are too.

[DaV8or]

Gentlemen, I love the discussions that have taken place even though I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoints (which is the best part of it). However, insults such as this have no place here. Up to now we've managed to keep the discussions respectful and I want to see it continue that way.

 

Me too. Getting angry over this stuff is pointless.

[flyboy0681]

 

 

 They have a list of new things based on whatever Europe is doing. I personally think that America has been an exceptional country precisely because we have not always done what Europe has done. 

 

I sure hope that doesn't include bringing those damned shower apparatuses into this country. After two dozen trips to the Continent I still can't figure out how to get the temperature just right and the water to come out of the showerhead.

[flyboy0681]

In today's news: the "Islamic State Group" releases a graphic video of the beheading of American Aid worker Peter Kassig, who was captured while delivering humanitarian supplies in Syria. Very sad. Mr Kassig was a former Army Ranger who turned aid worker after finishing his Army service. His maternal Grandfather was the co-founder of Americans for Peace in the Middle East. They were avid supporter of the Palentinian cause and efforts to establish their own nation.

 

 I hope my comment is not insensitive, but it should be established by now that a person is there at their own peril and should not expect the State Department to come to their rescue in the case of an abduction.

[flyboy0681]

Interesting, they killed a person whose family supported their people for generations, and who cared enough to organize assistance, and personally bring it and deliver it from across the ocean.

Hope the "coexist" crowd wakes up to the true nature of this immediate threat to our freedom, to our safety, to our way of life?

 

Sufficed it to say that they 1) don't respect life and 2) fanatics don't live by reason.

 

But I'm not worried about them marching down the mainstreet in my town anytime soon. Or in the distant future for that matter. They will be extinguished.

[flyboy0681]

 Once they reach about 5 percent of the population, they try to take the place over ...

 

 

 

Doing the math, I see that all of Europe has a population of approximately 700 million and a reported 30k ISIL members. Carry the one, divide by 3.

 

Ah, 5% of the population is 35 million. Me thinks they have a long ways to go.

[Danb]

I figured it out this thread has been political..now it makes sense

[DaV8or]

Liberalism is simply not answer for America. Neither is big government. Neither is this administration or the flawed ideas argued on this thread! Liberal ideology translated into government policy is what is hurting America.

 

Have you ever stopped to wonder why liberalism became so popular in the first place? If the good ol' days were great, why did we change anyhow? What did inspire Marx to write his famous book? Why were there revolutions around the world? Why was there worker revolts in America and unions formed? Why in the world would we ever need OSHA, FDA, or the EPA? Why would a significant number of Americans, growing up in the same America as everyone else, demand this stuff??

 

It seems to me that capitalism and the unbridled free markets maybe let some folks down along the way. No? Basically, the average working person over the decades hasn't been well read or educated enough to have deep understandings of economics, politics, market dynamics, or the sciences in general. They just knew it wasn't going their way. They were offered Communism and many grabbed onto it not fully understanding what it really meant. The results weren't pretty to those living in the Western world. An adaptation, or rework was needed to make it palatable to those in Europe and America. Socialism was born.

 

It's still with us and capitalists and their behavior today make it as popular as ever. Capitalists have the ability to make socialism obsolete and a few younger upstarts recognize this, but sadly most do not. The Indian order processing center for fast food chains described by Flyboy is all the evidence one needs to see that the ugly side of capitalism is alive and well.

 

When we transitioned from privately held companies to publicly held companies, the human element was eliminated. The people that actually made companies function, became line items on a balance sheet. The same as a truck, a table, or a stapler. Assets to be purchased and disposed of as needed. No hard feelings, it's just business, right?

 

There are some publicly traded companies that are starting to get it. People matter. Their welfare matters. Sadly, many more still don't get it and the annalists on Wall Street with their demands for quarterly profits don't help much. Still... some do get it.

 

Capitalism used to and still can go hand in hand with social welfare. It just requires they value the employees above the furniture. When companies care for people, their lives and their communities where they live, there is no need for socialism. It does mean smaller profits though, but as long as there is profit, it's all good in the 'hood. Small businesses know this and I hope eventually big ones will come around too.

 

Basically, the people demand government to step in and help where the markets have failed them. They can do this because we have a democracy and they can vote. Like it or not, that's socialism. If business takes care of people, no need for socialism. You pay one way or another. I personally like the model of the caring big business more than the big government. 

[DaV8or]

The war the United States did little to nothing to stop or intervene.

 

Why in the world should we?? Not our fight. America needs to get out and stay out of the Middle East. We really need to learn this. The place brings us nothing but misery. It's really terribly sad about this aid worker, but Americans really need to learn that the world is a dangerous place beyond our borders.

 

I feel more thread drift coming on... Timmy might be going on a new adventure.

[flyboy0681]

You forgot to acknowledge the beheading in Oklahoma. The attack at Fort Hood. Tne attack at the Canadian Parliment, and the beheading on the streets of London. They were not worrying anytime soon down there either.

They don't work like that. They create pockets, then try to establish their own sharia law - and live apart from host nation's laws and culture, then expand ... like around Dearborn and a few other places ... but why am I bothering to show you what clearly don't wish to see?

 

Lone wolf wannabes that don't have a life. Same goes for those that are trying to get over there from here. In other words, head cases. I was actually in Dearborn a few weeks ago for a few days on business. I had two fine Lebanese meals and had some very nice conversations with my client - who happened to emigrate here from Iran 25 years ago. A fine fellow may I add. Other than that it was very quiet there.

 

Remember the lyrics from the Kinks song.

[flyboy0681]

 We need a proper balance between free enterprise and government intervention. 

 

Read my post from a few pages ago when I answered (I think Scott's) question to why moderates are good for America.

[Tom]

Even so, I don't like it when it gets that personal. While I like speaking my mind, the following are out of bounds as far as I'm concerned and not open for discussion: ones faith, the way they raise their kids and what they do for a living.

At the start of this thread ostensibly about aviation was an attack on various institutions in our United States. The attacker has represented himself time and again is being at minimum overly emotional and repeatedly demonstrates want of greater understanding of the ideas that he holds so passionately. Does the combination of passion and ignorance (with a smattering of hate mixed in) sound like the recipe for anything good?

Because of my background I have little ability to silently listen to a someone make himself feel better by denigrating honorable institutions and disrespecting fellow humans while he himself is a free-rider exploiting (some would say stealing) from all of us.

Now, cross words amongst friends can make all of us feel a little uncomfortable. What makes me much more uncomfortable is how most of those present to this conversation can sit idly by as certain select people routinely make grossly disparaging remarks against what are undeniably the poor and minorities. Worse yet, when the attacker is called out for what he is--a free rider with no right to make the disparaging remarks about others--those erstwhile silent on behalf of the disenfranchised come to the defense of the free-riding attacker (if only in the name of civility). What someone does for a living is off limits but routine "in the open" denigrations of groups of humans is okay?  Really?

If we are to move forward, it will only be by marginalizing (at most) those on the margins so more sensible heads nearer the center can prevail. This doesn't come without danger as some of the people who need to be marginalized may react "poorly."  It is also difficult as otherwise good people will, in attempt to "make everyone get along" allow the disproportionately loud voiced wrong-arguments (from the margins) to disrupt progress.  Not everyone should have an equal voice if what they are saying is wrong.

 

From the denialism essay:

"Denialists also exploit the media’s self imposed “balanced” approach to presenting facts, which leads to the false impression that there really are two approximately equal sides to every debate"

[DaV8or]

There's the strategy of "fighting the enemy on their soil ... so we aren't fighting them on our soil." Not sure that's anything more than political rhetoric?

Edited to add: but if we stay at home (which I think we should) we sure do need to secure our own borders better than we currently do!

 

I have heard the argument of fighting them there, but I figure that if the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese with all the resources they had at their disposal, could never cross the thousands of miles of ocean and invade our shores, then these marauding band of delusional killers don't stand a chance. The idea that they can set up shop to invent new terrorist plots against us, well, they can do that now anywhere in the world. The plot Al Qaeda actually used against us could have been hatched in an apartment. The money needed to fund it could easily be acquired in a month by any of their gangster style rackets.

 

I believe the best way to deal with ISIS, is to leave them alone, but contain them. Let them defend the ground they have taken against the neighbors in the region, who by the way need to step up and not depend on us to clean up this home grown mess. At the same time, they can have a good crack at actually governing a territory and civilian population.

 

At this task they will fail. They know nothing of how to effectively do this, particularly with a world wide embargo going on as well as war on all fronts. They won't last. The USA will become their very last worry.

 

As to our borders, absolutely they should be secure. The Mexican border is over 1900 miles long and through some really terrible terrain. A tough thing to do with fences. My solution here would be as follows-

1. Stop all this idiot talk of amnesty and a road to citizenship for those here now.
2. Send all the those kids back to Mexico, not their home countries, but Mexico. That's where they came from, so they are Mexico's problem. Send the message that the sneak in fast under the wire idea is wrong.
3. Establish a work visa program that allows a manageable number of foreigners into the country to work legally and charge them less than they now have to pay to sneak into the country. This gives us a chance to actually have a look at who's who and check IDs as well as raise a lot of money. The workers will want to do this because it will be safe, cheaper and easier.
4. Track those that have work visas (that need to be renewed over a limited period) much like we track parolees now. A weekly check in or something.
5. After a certain number of years renewing the visas and no arrest records, the worker could become eligible for a citizenship program.
6. With the vast majority of workers coming in legally, those that try to sneak in will actually be easier to spot along the fences.

Basically, allow them to work in exchange for greater security without spending trillions on "The Great Wall of America" and the massive security apparatus needed to lock it down.

 

I actually think our Mexican border is pretty secure with regards to Middle East terrorists. These ISIS/Al Qaeda jihadi mofos don't actually blend all that well with migrant Catholics from Guatemala. I really doubt they will be paying a coyote to sneak them across a desert and under a fence. I think they are far more likely to get to our county via Lufthansa and a fake passport.

[flyboy0681]

 

 I think they are far more likely to get to our county via Lufthansa and a fake passport.

 

This is what I've been saying for a while but some here keep chanting the Fox News mantra that they are coming in from Mexico, carrying ebola. 

 

Conspicuously missing from daver328's mention of Ft. Hood et al are Ted Kaczynski, Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh. So much talk of jihadists coming to America, what about American prisons as a breeding ground for domestic jihadists. With 25% of the worlds prison population locked up here (a statistic beyond comprehension), islamic fanaticism has the potential to spread faster than gonorrhea.

[flyboy0681]

Somewhat related to the discussion we had on vaccines a few days ago

 

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-vaccine-court-keeps-claimants-waiting-183827288--finance.html

[flyboy0681]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/17/martin-salia-ebola-dies-dead-nebraska_n_6170730.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/ebola-kills-nurse-mali-worse-spread-feared-n247021

 

I was actually waiting for someone to send this about Salia, but I wasn't quite sure who it would be.

 

Obviously you have a hard time differentiating between someone who has a full blown, end stage case of Ebola and those that started treatment at the very first sign of symptoms. This is no different than starting treatment when one is first diagnosed as being HIV+ versus when a person is presented with a full blown case of AIDS. One scenario carries a lot of hope while the other is almost certain death. Just like everything in life, it's all in the timing.

[flyboy0681]

Knowing all the answers is so much easier than admitting you might have been incorrect or premature in your conclusion. It might require a little humility to admit you spoke too soon or spoke in error.

 

I very much stand behind my response. The man arrived in extremely bad shape with kidney and heart failure and was wheeled into the hospital. Compare that image to the others that walked off the plane under their own power. If you can't see that difference then the argument is hopeless. I don't believe I said in any of my posts that even the worst cases that are treated here are successfully cured. If I did then please point me to it.

[flyboy0681]

It's ok. Nancy Pelosi doesn't remember having ever heard of Jonathon Gruber. Barack Obama still doesn't recall what he was doing, what he knew or when he knew it - the night our citizens, who were calling for help, were murdered by terrorists in Benghazi, Libya. And two "rogue" IRS Agents in Cincinnati single-handedly harassed thousands of Patriots all by themselves. I know, I know ... "At this point what difference does it make?!"

 

 

And somewhere in there I said that a person with end-stage Ebola with multiple organ failure can be saved? I'm still not seeing it, underline it for me if you will.

 

For what it's worth, I loathe Pelosi as the next guy. Never cared for her.