Jsavage3

I like it -- bought the Mooney with it already installed, so I can't compare it too much myself, but here's a couple of observations: I climb at 120 KIAS and I see 800 to 1000 fpm in the climb even when pushing gross weight. This bird has alot of get up & go. It also has the K&N air filter mod and GAMIs, so that may be helping too. It is noisy for those outside the airplane...inside not bad in my opinion. 157 to 158 KTAS in cruise at anywhere from 9.4 to 10.2 gph depending on altitude...8 to 10K is where she seems happy, about 9.5 gph.

I'd be curious who has owned/used the airplane throughout its life, i.e. has it been employed in a flight school or has it been flown by owner pilots flying cross-country trips? Any damage history related to airframe? Hangared? Hail damage? Sun damage? How's the interior and is the avionics package what pleases you? These are the things I would recommend you consider rather than focus solely on the TT. BTW, I love my J...9 gph at 160 kts for 6 hours with nearly 1000# payload is hard to beat. Happy hunting!

The engine is now in many little pieces. As we expected, the cam shaft is bad -- 3 of the 6 cam lobes are rounded (both intake valve lobes and one of the exhaust valve lobes). My A&P/IA tells me that based on what he sees, he figures the engine was only giving me 160 hp rather than the standard 200 hp. He said I probably didn't notice it b/c (1) I'm fairly new to the airplane (35 hrs or so) and (2) the power-flow exhaust was adding some horses on the back end. I thought I had a slick bird b/c I was seeing 157 KTAS at 24 squared and 9.2 gph. He thinks she'll definitely pick up the pace for me...this is good. No one buys a Mooney to fly it slow, right? The crank looks good, but will need some polishing where the metal was getting "pressed through the bearings". It, the case and a box of odds-n-ends are now at the engine shop for the cleaning/magna-flux magic. The piston skirts are quite "abrased" from the metal particles and the cylinder walls will be getting bored to ten thousandths over as a result of corrosion/abrasion. I've decided on the overhaul now that we're actually inside of it. The original idea of a "simple repair" was, in actuality, going to end up basically being an overhaul anyway, I've since learned... Bottomline, what I've learned so far is that if my engine is making metal, not only do I want to find out where it's coming from (and quickly), but also either get it fixed now or else deal with the damage that is caused by having metal go thru the bearings...cranks are expensive! More to follow...

I agree with your TSMOH comments for sure. As long as she's running healthy, there's no reason why I cannot keep right on running her past the 2000-hour mark. The prop is actually due for an overhaul, so that will get done either way. The oil cooler could be flushed, but I've decided to just put a new one on in an effort to further isolate (get rid of) any & all metal contaminants. The prop governor, well, we'll see.

All excellent points, Gentlemen. My A&P/IA will be doing the work. I've watched him overhaul engines before and I trust his methods. He has quoted me $7500 to repair the engine only -- this will include many new parts. The new oil cooler, overhaul of the prop governor and prop will bring me to somewhere around $10,000 out the door with a fresh annual. It will still be a 1500-hour engine, but I trust that the safety factor will be greatly increased and I can actually relax knowing I've done the prudent thing regarding the safety of my family. This plan won't help the resale value, but that's ok. Bottomline, we won't make the final judgement until we remove a couple of jugs and look around...

I did an oil analysis when I changed the oil 25+ hrs ago -- the results came back in the green, i.e. normal. My mechanic and I found that hard to believe considering how much metal we pulled out of the filter. Do I want to do a tear-down, of course not, but I also know I won't put my family in the airplane knowing what I know right now. As a result, the airplane is pretty useless to me until the issue is fixed. My wife made me promise to take her to Oshkosh this summer, so I need to get busy! I'm scheduled for the tear-down/repair in 2 weeks. My plan will be to pull a jug or two and see where we're at. I fully expect us to end up cracking the case. If we do end up cracking the case, my plan is to have this engine repaired (not overhauled) which will be under half the cost of a field overhaul and less than a third of a factory reman. Why not go the whole 9-yards? First, this -A3B6D engine will be going into an experimental airplane (electronic ignition) in the next 3-5 years and 2nd, I want to wait on the overhaul until we figure out where we're going to go after 100LL goes away. Once we know what is going to fuel our birds, I want to go back into the Mooney with an overhauled -A3B6 engine...I do not like single drive, dual mags.

Ross, Yes, it was ferrous metal -- steel -- the magnet collected nearly all of it. The longer I took the magnet over the filter media, the more ferrous metal showed up. There was the standard amount of non-ferrous sludge, but it was the sand-like pieces that loved the magnet that got my attention.

Shadrach, No cylinder work on this bird yet. I bought it 6 mos. ago knowing it was making metal because we found it in the oil filter during the pre-buy. The seller adjusted the price accordingly, so I bought it hoping it was going to "clear up". Now, after 35 hours and the 3rd filter cutting session, my fears have been confirmed. Compressions? That's the hard part -- the compressions, oil consumption, pressures/temps, oil analysis, everything has been great -- no sign of a problem...other than the continuation of fine, steel granules in the oil filter...and my A&P says it is a lot...not just a granule here-n-there. I'm not willing to continue "trouble shooting" it because I find that I am driving myself crazy with worry everytime I'm sitting behind that spinning prop. She runs great and makes good power, but I just cannot keep thinking about the "now I'm a glider" scenario and myself trying to explain to someone why I kept at it when I KNEW what the engine was doing. Becoming a glider due to an engine failure that I did not anticipate, well, that's why we train for engine-out emergencies, right? But, knowing what I know changes my comfort level. Bottomline, the engine should not be making appreciable steel, i.e. more than the normal wear kind of sludge. Lycoming's Service Instruction No. 1492D (item #8 a thru d) was quite helpful. I've come to believe that it is likely the cam and that the likely outcome, were I to continue flying it, would be that the engine would gradually lose power as the cam lobes continued to wear. It would not just stop making metal and it would likely not be a catastraphic engine failure; rather, the gradual loss of power. Supposedly, the oil filter would keep any steel from getting to the bearings, so I shouldn't have to worry about that, but is the prop getting contaminated? Or the prop governor? ... there are just far too many what-ifs going on here. I fly the airplane for the transportation tool that it is -- night IMC over the mountains, etc -- and I have elected to correct the problem before continuing my travel pleasures. I appreciate everyone's input and I will post what I find once we crack the case. Blue skies!

Based on all the info here, my own research elsewhere and knowing my engine is spitting steel sand, I've decided on a teardown. It's expensive, but one cannot put a price on the value of your loved ones. If I continued trying to evaluate the details by continuing to operate the airplane, I believe I'd be putting my family and myself at considerable risk. The cost of the repair is much more palatable.

Shadrach, please explain the how & why one needs not worry about contaminants being pulled into the fuel lines when running a Mooney's fuel tank dry. Does the fuel tank design "filter itself" somehow prior to the fuel pickup point?

I won't intentionally run a tank dry because of what I see occur everytime I sump my tanks. Dirt/water sinks to the bottom - right where that last gasp of fuel gets pulled into my fuel injected engine. The "ppm" or contaminates per ounce of fuel increases as the quantity decreases in the tank. When my low fuel light illuminates, I switch to the other tank.

I had similar indications a while back. Took the top cowl off and the oil cooler felt cold to the touch while the oil temp guage was at red line...that should not be the case. The vernatherm was bad. Replaced it and everything has been just right ever since.

My primary question comes down to how much is too much? I find it hard to believe that ANY metal in the filter is grounding. How long did we fly airplanes with nothing but a screen & no filter? Why does oil turn black? Over the life of the engine, the wearables exit via the oil, right? If there were ANY of indicators pointing to problems, then there'd be no question. To quell any fears out there, I'm not into risk taking when it comes to my family or my pink butt, but we all have to weigh those risks and make hopefully intelligent decisions that will help mitigate those dangers. My single-drive, dual mag or night IMC over the mountains comes to mind... Bottomline, and please sing out if you don't agree, I think the source of the metal needs to be identified. It'd be a shame to split the case and find that the problem was coming from a jug. Gents & Ladies, I am not trying be argumentative here, it's just that I keep hearing conflicting opinions and this is obviously a very important topic. It's sort of like getting bad news from a Doc; what do we do, we go get a 2nd opinion. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one. So far, it appears that everyone here is in agreement. Also, I appreciate you taking the time to share your opinions.

Needing some advice... I bought the airplane 6 mos ago knowing that my mechanic found a very small amount of metal (steel) in the oil filter during the pre-buy. After the purchase, we changed the oil/filter (did not clean the oil sump screen) and did another compression check. Oil analysis came back normal with everything in the green. Compressions were all around 70 and slightly better than what we saw during the pre-buy. I flew it 10 hours and then we cut the filter. More metal (steel) -- very fine pieces that felt gritty between my fingers. He recommended I fly it another 10 hrs and then cut the filter again. I flew it 20 hrs and we cut the filter. Smaller quantity of metal, but there is still that gritty steel -- smaller than sand granules. We found one piece of steel that we decided was more like a sliver. The engine is a 25 yrs old engine with 1500 hrs on it. Previous owner flew it about 60 hrs over a 2.5 year period. His previous owner flew it very little over a 8 yrs period. I'm hoping to change the oil right away, clean the oil sump screen, do an oil analysis that includes sending them the oil filter, do another compression check and borescope the cylinders...and then see where we are. Is it possible for an engine to make a little metal for awhile and then stop? Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Quote: bgpilot1 ... and leave the mixture lean when landing as well.

Three near mid-airs -- two in the F-15C and one in the F-16 -- that "got my attention". F-15C #1 = me pure vertical (straight down) and pulling with lift vector on my flight lead as I was chasing after him following an engagement -- unfortunately, my flight path took me literally 20 feet directly in front of another (enemy) F-15C whom we had not seen -- he was doing 450 knots or so. My aircraft was in his HUD for 3 frames...my nose, my aircraft blacked out his HUD and finally my tail feathers as I vacated the scene. F-15C #2 = Flight lead and I were line abreast (flight lead to the right), headed downhill and pressing an "enemy" F-16 who was notching from my left to right -- I'd called engaged and "shot" the bandit as he started to pitch in from the notch. He pulled through me for what would have been a tight left-to-left pass as I called the kill. Before the kill call could be relayed to him and with him inside 1000' and nearly 1000 knots of closure, he very abruptly pulled hard left and directly into my flight path. I instinctively rolled & pulled hard left (over-G'd my jet) and felt my jet "thump" as I went thru his jetwash. I thought I'd hit him. I quickly rolled back right and looked over my right shoulder, I watched him flying away and toward my flight lead. Later, we learned that he'd never seen me at all...he'd been manuavering off and trying to engage my flight lead the whole time. F=16 = night bombing mission had me heads down as I was seconds away from bomb release for a laser-guided bomb. Suddenly, I saw a flash and HEARD an after-burning engine flash by me on the right...inside of 200 feet, all lights out (mine were out too as we were being tactical and wearing NVGs)...going in the opposite direction. We'd already cleared the target area of threats and this jet came out of nowhere. Turns out, it was a member of a different 2-ship who was supposed to be hitting a different target...he'd punched in the steerpoint for my target by accident during his egress off target... New day, new jet -- F-16 again -- had three Mark-82 bombs (live ones) that went hung (front lug released, but the rear lug was locked tight) during a visual, 30-degree diving delivery and they were all hanging down a little in the front as only the rear lug would not release. Tried to jettison the TER, even tried the emergency jettison system -- all to no avail. Three live, armed bombs hanging out there in a very precarious manner -- now what? Either eject and bring her home while avoiding "populated areas" and put her on the runway. I brought her home. I taxied to the bomb-proof revetment as directed and was somewhat dismayed to see everyone running AWAY from me as I started to get her shut down and get AWAY myself... Thought I had an engine failure in an F-15C as #2 during a formation takeoff. Gear up, flaps up, heard a thump and felt my bird start to "sag", i.e. stop accelerating. Slammed both throttles to full AB and watched lead pulling away as I picked up a couple knots with the tower shouting "...#2's on fire!" Got her up to a safe altitude, ran checklist, dumped fuel and started to bring her home. Put the gear down and #1 (now chase) said "hold up, there's something wrong with your nose wheel". Long story short, the nose tire had separated (all rubber tread came off in one long piece) during takeoff and, of course, had gone down my left engine mainly and a little down the right one too. Had a right engine do the whole stall/stag thing (fail) at 200' AGL and about 200 knots during a full-AB takeoff in an F-15D. She yawed 30+ degrees to the right before my boot could stomp the rudder... Over Iraq was "exciting". Lot's of AAA and an occasional SAM. Remember Y2K of 31 Dec 1999 fame? Yes, they put us up that night...weren't sure what would happen...just knew we'd best be ready. That's all military stuff. I've got 3000+ hours of civilian dual given and I suspect a student or two has made me jump at one point or another... And now I'm building an airplane... All I can say is that when the bug bites, she bites HARD!

Turned out to be the vernatherm. I landed with oil temps near redline on the factory guage, popped the cowl and the oil cooler felt cold to the touch. That is when we felt fairly certain that we were on the right track -- vernatherm or blocked oil cooler. With the new vernatherm, I now see 160-180 degrees on the factory guage.

My '86 M20J just started devoping high oil temps -- the last three flights. Oil quantity is good at 6 plus, the engine baffling is good, the oil cooler is clear of external debris and the belly is clean of oil. It has been gradually worsening with each of the last three flights and I hope the vernatherm will fix the issue. The guage is definitely functioning and I believe it to be accurate because when the temp goes up, the oil press goes down to just below the green arc when at idle. The last flight it went from barely touching the bottom of the green arc at takeoff (OAT 35 degrees F, cowl flaps open, mixture rich and IAS 120 KIAS to 4500 feet MSL) to starting to touch the redline (about 240 degrees F and redline is 245 degrees F) once I reached 4500 feet four minutes later -- the oil temp indicator was moving quite fast. I aborted the trip, reduced power and completed a decsending turn back towards the airport. The temp peaked and decreased slightly once I started back. My gut tells me oil system (guage, vernatherm or cooler) or internal engine issues -- I dearly hope it's not the latter... Will report back once I have more info... Wish me luck please.

Is the nosewheel connected to the rudder? In other words, with heavy rudder input for crosswind controls, does the nosewheel stay straight or does it turn in the direction that rudder is being applied? I have an '86 J model and it seems that the nosewheel is not straight when I am jabbing at a rudder... Nosewheel straight when nosewheel touches is a good thing...any inputs about how you ensure it is so would be appreciated.

Well, all of my experience has been with JPI products. I've always been very satisfied with those types of analyzers. The trouble of selling my EI version and buying a JPI seems unduly cost prohibitive and troublesome...especially when I have this product sitting here in my lap. I'm not so concerned about pretty color displays, rather, I want easy-to-interpret and reliable information from which I can safely run LOP ops. I appreciate your advice about the FP-5L. Is there anything else that you would upgrade or change if you were to do it all over again? Thank you, Jim '86 M20J N5632Y

I just took delivery of my 201 and the deal came through with me receiving a brand new, in-the-box Electronics International UBG-16 (Ultimate Bar Graph) engine analyzer. I have never used this type of engine analyzer before. Per the buy-ei.com website, I can order fuel flow for $395 and RPM for $195 plus a host of other mods. I will be putting an engine monitor in this 201 ASAP, but I am wondering if I should use this one that was provided (most economical choice of course) or sell it and buy a JPI 730/830. Anyone out there who has experience with both the UBG-16 and the JPI systems? I would really appreciate your observations and/or preferences. Please include the "whys" when you state your preferences. Thank you, Jim '86 M20J N5632Y