Jsavage3

Pulling my Mooney out of my hangar is no problem as it's slightly downhill, but getting it back into my hangar is, well, something I dread. Dry asphalt, I can get it done solo as long as I get a little run at it... Wet or icy = major issues. So, I'm looking for suggestions as to what device is preferred when it comes to tow devices for the Mooney. I've been looking at RoboTow for awhile and I just ran across a nifty battery-drill device being advertised at Oshkosh... For those of you using or have used a tow device for your Mooney, what works best for you?

This is good to know. I had gone with "it's running rough" but this helps clear up in my mind what to look for on the engine monitor when a valve is starting to stick...and you know which cylinder is acting up too!

Marvel Mystery Oil perhaps? I personally don't use it (yet), but I'm certainly paying attention to its pros-n-cons.

GREAT news!!! Thanks for sharing!

I had the Aera 560 mounted into the panel (high right side) with the angled device that angles the face of the GPS 15 degrees towards the left seat. We love it and the location is perfect!

This airplane should be grounded immediately until the issue is resolved! Wire chaffing in the ignition system perhaps?

Can you give any additional details about this idea? Does anyone sell a metal baffle kit?

Joe at Signature Engines in KLUK is the man who (1) discussed my bird's condition with me and (2) then performed the SB work. He's very knowledgeable about this and I'd strongly recommend giving him a call if you'd care for any sticky-valve specific details. IMHO and along with N74795, I cannot say enough good things about Signature Engines! Bottomline, if your bird is suffering from morning sickness, get it looked at ASAP!!!

I had my A&P/IA do a field OH for me. He's been maintaining my airplanes for 6 or 7 years and I trust him. Of course, there's no warranty, but I've been very happy with this smooth-running OH'd engine. He basically did the dis- & re-assembly as the case/crank/cylinders/etc were sent out to engine shops... Would I do this again? Probably would, especially if I was going to keep the airplane. If I was looking at resale value, I'd probably go with a factory reman.

N201MKTurbo, I understand your position and, initially, that is what I was thinking too. Upon my learning the potential of a sticky valve taking the next step and actually sticking and the inevitable & catastrophic consequences that will follow, well, that is when I (as well as Lyc and the engine shop) felt something needed to be done. That's where SB 388C fit the bill quite nicely. Upon finding the exhaust valve guide on cyl #2 too tight, it was confirmed that, in my case anyway, allowing it to wear in would not have worked out well. I use Aeroshell 15W50 and CamGuard added at each oil change.

MMO is not an aviation/FAA approved product. I've heard of many aircraft owners who swear by it, but...my tractor, no problem...my cars, no problem...currently, I won't be using it in my airplane. I've heard that folks are using MMO in their oil mainly and that it can be used in fuel too...

For the last several weeks and on the first-start-of-the-day engine starts only, I've been seeing a smooth running engine for 2-3 minutes, then it suddenly starts running rough. It does this for about 30 seconds or so and then goes away. During the event, the MP starts to climb (I've seen it go as high as 20") while the RPM decreases or stays fairly constant at 1000 or so. Mixture rich or lean for taxi seems to have no affect. Fuel boost pump on doesn't change anything either. After a minute or so, it smooths out, the MP drops back down to 12" or so at 1000 rpm and all is well. The following mag check is normal. This situation doesn't show up on subsequent starts that day...just the first start of day and even then, not every time. It feels like a fouled plug, but I cannot get it too clear up with the usual techniques of leaning her out. I talked to my engine guy and he thought, based on my description, that I had a valve sticking. So here I am 92 SMOH and I may have an engine issue. Lovely! My engine guy told me to look at the engine monitor next time and try to figure out which cylinder is running colder than the rest...he says that is the one with the sticky valve/tight valve guide. He said once we determine which cylinder is having the issue, then he will take that cylinder off, mic the valve and guide and have the valve guide reamed a little, if needed. My initial questions were (and answers in parenthesis): 1) Am I safe to keep operating it like this? (NO...look into sticky-vs-stuck valve...if she sticks, you're a glider) 2) Will a tight valve guide "wear itself in" over time? (NO, get it fixed.) 3) Is this common? (It's not unheard of...Lyc felt it worthy of SB & SI...see below) 4) Marvel Mystery Oil? (Might temporarily help the symptom, but won't fix the problem. I elected not to try this option...) It was at this point that I stumbled across Lycoming's Mandatory Service Bulletin 388C and Service Instruction 1425A...which finds/fixes a sticky valve and can fix it without removing the cylinder. Lyc recommends we comply with this SB every 400 hours or sooner if one suspects a sticky valve. Hmmmmm! So, does Lyc consider this a common issue...IMHO, apparently so. Considering possibilities of any future attempts to sell our Mooney and putting ourselves in the shoes of a potential buyer, we ended up taking her to Signature Engines in Cincinnati (my engine guy is great, but he's not an engine shop and I just didn't want to start by pulling off a jug). I had the engine shop c/w Lyc SB 388C. No issues with cylinders 1, 3 or 4. However, the exhaust valve on cyl #2 was tight. They reamed the guide IAW Lycoming's directions and she's been given a clean bill of health! I am relieved beyond words!! A stuck valve is going to ruin your day (i.e. start looking for an emergency landing site) and hopefully this story will help a fellow Mooney Driver avoid having the displeasure of their day being ruined over a sticky/stuck valve... Blue skies... P.S. Here is an article found on AvWeb that seemed quite informative: February 5, 1996 Dealing with Stuck Valves Email this article |Print this article If your engine seems rough when first started, it might be giving you an early warning of a stuck valve. Failure to heed this warning and correct the situation promptly could cost you an engine teardown, or even result in a catastrophic engine failure and a forced landing. Here's the lowdown on why valves stick and what to do about it. February 5, 1996 by John Schwaner Copyright © 1995 by Sacramento Sky Ranch Inc. All rights reserved. Each cylinder of your piston aircraft engine has two valves—intake and exhaust—that open and close by sliding in and out through a close-tolerance valve guide. A stuck valve is one that no longer slides readily in its guide. A stuck valve may refuse to open, or once open it may refuse to close. Either situation is quite serious. Stuck valves are usually caused by a build-up of deposits and/or corrosion on the valve stem. Because the fit of the stem in the guide is so snug, it doesn't take much build-up on the valve stem to interfere with free movement of the valve within the guide. "Morning sickness" The clearance between the valve stem and its valve guide are at a minimum when the engine is cold. Consequently, the first sign of a stuck valve usually occurs when the engine is first started, and is often identified by an intermittent hesitation, or miss, in engine speed. We call this "morning sickness". Morning sickness is a warning that should be heeded immediately. Sticky valves never get better by themselves...they always get worse, usually fairly quickly. Flying an airplane whose engine exhibits morning sickness increases the risk of serious engine damage and possibly in-flight engine failure. Hence, the aircraft should be downed for maintenance at the first hint of valve sticking. What makes valves stick? Valve sticking is influenced both by the design of the engine and the environment in which it is operated. Lycomings have more valve sticking problem than Continentals. Hot-running engines stick valves more often than cool-running ones. Valves are more likely to stick in hot summer weather than in cold winter months. The use of heavily-leaded fuels and inadequate leaning can lead to valve sticking, as can infrequent oil changes. Heat is the primary cause of valve sticking. High temperatures in the exhaust valve guide oxidizes oil and forms carbon deposits on the valve guide, and these deposits can cause the valve to stick. The most frequent reason for elevated valve temperatures is valve leakage. All of the combustion gas must pass around the valve face as it goes out the exhaust port. The large heat-absorbing surface of the exhaust valve face must conduct heat away from its surface. A valve that is not contacting its seat properly (i.e., is leaking) cannot conduct as much heat into the cylinder head as a valve with good seating. Sticky Lycomings Lycoming valve stems operate at higher temperatures than Continental valves stems. Continental engines use solid exhaust valves whereas Lycoming engines use sodium-cooled exhaust valves, which have hollow stems filled with metallic elemental sodium. The sodium in the Lycoming valve melts at 97.5°C and conducts heat from the valve head into the valve stem, where it is conducted through the valve guide into the cylinder head. The Lycoming valve stem normally operates 100°F hotter than the Continental valve stem. The higher valve stem temperatures in Lycomings make them more susceptible to valve sticking. Most of the heat conducted from the head of the Lycoming exhaust valve goes out though the valve stem into the cylinder head fins. In addition, the Lycoming guide boss allows 5% of the guide to extend past the end of the boss and protrude into the exhaust port. The protruding guide absorbs heat from the flow of exhaust gas. Because of the high temperatures and combustion deposits on the exhaust valve stem, this area of the guide "bell mouths" or gets bigger. This increases the clearance between the guide and the stem and allows combustion products and heat to travel up the valve stem. These combustion products create lead deposits and acids which increase the corrosive environment. Lycoming valves also stick because of corrosion buildup on the valve stem. Corrosion increases the diameter of the valve , thereby reducing the valve stem-to-guide clearance. The high stem temperatures, combined with a design which allows more combustion products into the guide bore, create a corrosive environment which is seldom seen on Continental engines. Lycoming TIO-541 engines installed in the Beechcraft Duke use an oil-cooled exhaust guide. Cooling oil circulates in a groove between the exhaust guide and the guide boss. If this groove cokes up with oxidized oil and becomes blocked, the exhaust guide and valve overheat and stick. If you have a stuck exhaust guide on this engine, be sure to check the oil passage by blowing compressed air through the oil fitting in the cylinder head. Continental engine design is more resistant to valve sticking. Big-bore Continentals rarely stick valves. We do see a tendency for intake valves to stick on Continental engines in the O-200, O-300 series. A stuck intake valve disrupts the breathing of the entire induction system. The power loss results in a forced landing. Engine operating environment Environmental influences that create valve sticking are: high temperatures, dirty oil, high-lead fuels, hot engine shut-downs, and poor engine baffling. Improper leaning can also be a culprit: an engine that is run excessively rich will build up carbon, lead, and other combusion-related deposits on exhaust valve stems more quickly. On the other hand, an engine that is leaned excessively during high-power operation will experience high valve temperatures, and this contributes to valve sticking. Engine overhaul shops can't do much to prevent valve sticking. They cannot change the engineering of the engine, and have little control over its operating environment. About all they can do is to use the correct parts (valves, guides, seats, rotators, etc.), to dimensionally match the parts carefully, and to control the surface finish of the guide by careful reaming and honing. Your regular maintenance shop can influence the operating environment by checking the engine's health regularly (via compression checks, oil analysis, filter inspection, etc.), by making sure the cooling baffles are in good shape and the magneto timing is correct, and by changing the oil frequently. What happens whan a valve sticks? When an engine has a stuck valve, one of five things can happen, each of which is bad news: The pushrod bends. The surface of the camshaft or cam follower fails. The valve opens but won't close. The rocker support breaks. The valve rotator cap falls off the end of the valve stem. (Lycomings only.) A valve that sticks closed will often result in serious and costly engine damage. Each time the cam-tappet-pushrod-rocker try to open that stuck valve, you risk catastrophic engine damage. With a stuck valve, the valve doesn't want to move. Tremendous valve train forces develop as the camshaft lobe tries to force the valve open. The camshaft follower and lobe are the most highly-stressed components of the engine even under normal conditions...the additional loading caused by a stuck valve may induce catastrophic failure of the rocker support, pushrod, cam follower, or cam lobe. A damaged camshaft lobe requires complete engine removal and teardown. The same is true of a damaged cam follower if it is the mushroom-head variety used in many Lycoming engines. Sometimes an exhaust valve that is stuck closed can cause the intake pushrod to bed or the intake rocker support boss to break. How can this happen? If the exhaust valve sticks closed, exhaust gases will not exit from the cylinder. Gas pressure within the cylinder then prevents the intake valve from opening. If this happens, something's gotta give. Either the pushrod bends or the rocker support breaks. You might think that a valve that sticks open is a much less serious situation, but that's not necessarily so. If the valve is an intake valve, you lose power and will need to make a forced landing. If the valve is an exhaust valve, there will not be any compression on that cylinder. In either case, if the valve spring can't close the valve, the entire valve train (cam follower, pushrod, and rocker arm) unloads. The end of the pushrod that rests in the socket in the cam follower may come out of the socket and fling around inside the tappet boss. If the pushrod ball does not locate itself back into the socket when the cam lobe comes around, it may jam against the tappet housing, usually causing crankcase damage. The valve rotator cap on Lycoming engines is kept on the tip of the exhaust valve stem by the rocker arm. If the valve sticks open, the rocker may move far enough away to allow the rotator cap to fall off the valve stem tip. When this happens, not only is valve clearance excessive, but also the rocker face pounds into the spring seat. The rotator cap is too big to fall down the pushrod tubes. It just lays in the rocker box until you take the rocker box off. It then quietly falls unnoticed onto the hangar floor. If you notice a missing rotator cap, it is likely that the exhaust valve was stuck open in the past. Look in the rocker box or around the hangar floor and you might find it. Engine damage does not always occur when the valve sticks, but the longer the engine operates in this condition, the greater the chances are that some damage will occur. Remedial action Repairing a stuck valve can be done without removing the cylinder from the engine. The procedure is described in Lycoming Service Instruction 1425 and consists of dropping the valve into the combustion chamber, reaming the guide, and then reinstalling the valve. Another method is to tie dental floss to the end of the exhaust valve and lower it down into the cylinder. Ream the guide and then pull the valve back up into the guide. If it's necessary to remove the cylinder, we recommend you inspect the condition of the camshaft lobes and the cam follower. You may want to review the operating environment of the engine. Pay particular attention to the oil change intervals, baffle condition, and operating techniques. The procedure outlined in Lycoming Service Instruction 1425 and described here can also be used on Continental engines. Do not use Marvel Mystery Oil or other solvents to un-stick a valve. Solvents may un-stick the valve in time but not immediately. Eventually the valve may un-stick, but not before your camshaft lobes have been damaged. Solvent treatments dissolve the outer deposit layers in the guide boss and temporarily un-stick the valve. The remaining deposits push the valve over to the opposite side of the guide and cause rapid, uneven guide wear. The valve stem may stick or it may cause rapid guide wear where the stem is forced against the guide material opposite of the deposit buildup.

2-blade quicker in cruise...so it is. Anyone care to expound on WHICH 2-blade is faster in cruise? McCauley or Hartzell? I witnessed a scimitar Hartzell give a C-model 5+ knots over its McCauley and it (Hartzell) was v-e-r-y smooth... Yes, I flew it before and after the prop swap...

Funvee stated, "I have the aerox 4 place system and love it. I have it strung over the front right seat so it's easy for me to adjust." Slung over the front right seat makes it hard for rear seat passenger's access doesn't it?

Portable O2 bottle location...is hanging from the back of the front-left seat the only realistic option? This position would be hard for me to adjust when flying solo...sure, I can move it, but this equals hassle. My wife will always have to be the one to adjust it...not a problem, just an observation. I haven't looked yet, so this question is just that, a question...would it be possible/realistic to fasten a long, thin bottle to the cockpit floor under the front-left seat? If possible, advantages as I see them: (1) with the adjustment positioned forward, I could adjust it myself and (2) preserves rear-seat legroom. Disadvantages? Possibly difficult to secure and/or remove for refills. I feel that the biggest bottle I can get away with will reduce my hassle of refill options. Any feedback on bottle placement and ease-of-use options?

I started with a Maule M5-235 b/c I needed 4 seats and good STOL. 4-seat STOL, the Maule can't be beat. Then I put 31-inch tundra tires and a big prop on her. Oh she looked good and STOL performance was WOW! But, cross country flying was not fun...either for the speed or the fuel burn. She'd get 120k on a good day at about 13 gph and those 31-inch tundra tires caused me to need non-asphalt surfaces for landing...but she looked good! Find a fuel stop on a regular basis that has grass, rental cars, fuel, etc. With the STOL mission not really needed anymore, I started shopping... My old USAF buddy was loving his J, so we had a talk. Then I started really doing my homework. I was hooked...the J it would be, as long as my better half would agree. Found a nice 86' J with low time, new interior, reasonable panel and original paint that still looked good. My wife is an aviator's dream, so it didn't take much from me to convince her. We made the J ours, although we did find "metal in filter" issues during the pre-buy. The gentleman adjusted the price accordingly and we happily tucked her into our hangar. We've since had the O/H completed and we're now enjoying the efficiency of 158 ktas at 9.3-to-9.7 gph (#2 at peak as she peaks first) with nearly 1000# payload. Yes, the payload is better that the Maule's was. We've had her to Oshkosh, Niagara Falls, the Bahamas, Florida several times, Iowa each summer for the fair (yes, my wife is from there) and we love looking at our long list of future J destinations over a cup of coffee on a foggy morning! If we ever decide to part with our bird, it would likely be for a 252/Encore or an Ovation. We love our Mooney!!!

Hypoxia is what to watch out for... For you K drivers, I have been analyzing M20T flights on flight aware...was just curious as to how high and how fast you guys/gals are going on a given day. I was surprised to realize that the vast majority of your flights occurred at or below 12,000 feet and the speeds were no faster than I see in my J. Earlier, Zane had some comments for which I completely agree...top the turb, it's nice for mountain airports, grab that strong tailwind, etc...got it, but just how often is one REALLY using a K for what a K was designed for? I've had my J up to 13,000 and she loved it -- handled it fine. I strongly suspect that with a portable O2 bottle in hand, 15k or so would not be out of the question...again, for turb avoidance, grab some tailwind, etc. One lives in the mountains, of course, a K is the only way to go...but it doesn't mean one cannot take a normally-aspirated J into the mountains on occasion, it just means one has to be more cautious...but there are other threads for that topic... So here we go...the K has higher purchase price, higher mx costs, burns more fuel, generally has lower useful load, etc -- it comes down to one's mission, sure, but for a J driver considering taking the leap into a K, is it really worth it in the long run. I've heard folks say, "once they've had the K, they won't go back to the J"... Now that that can of worms is open, I'll be happy to hear your feedback.

My 86' J consistently does 158 ktas on 9.4-to-9.7 gph non-LOP, has nearly 1000# useful load and is a perfectly stable IFR platform. I figure that the gallon or so per hour LOP might save me, it's not worth the airspeed penalty...IMHO! I bought a Mooney to go fast and at less than 10 gph, well, I'll feed her that! If I were feeding a big-bore 6 cylinder...that's different. Although I have been ogling the K/Encore ships, I am quite in love with my beautiful J! Skynewbie, just an opinion to consider...

I love my J, but I'll admit, I have found myself ogling the 252/Encore. So, picture yourself a salesman and convince this happy J driver why a 252 or an Encore would be it for me. In addition, consider things like oxygen wear (how 'happy' will my wife be using O2), cost to refill O2 bottles, payload, etc... A casual observation on my part...my J does 160ktas on 10gph at 10,000 feet and I've read a 252 will do 190ktas on 13gph, but only up high (high teens to low FLs) & on O2...roughly the same fuel burn for any given trip. If winds drive one low, what's the 252 going to do (ktas & gph) at 10,000 feet? I flew in the military wearing helmet & mask for 1500 hrs, so I've had my fair share of O2 use...I'm just not yet convinced that the cost/hassle/pain of O2 use is worth the reward of an altitude engine. So, here's your chance to convince me that trading my lovely J in for a 252 is meant to be...

Anyone out there had LASAR STC 103A or 103B done to their Mooney? I have an '86 J model and I'm considering having these two mods completed... Any personal feedback (before & after kind of stuff) would be greatly appreciated...pictures would be a plus too! Thank you

If you were ever to concern yourself with 'passenger liability' that you assume command of...I'd suggest leave the step in place. Have you ever 'missed the step' when climbing down? I just don't want to give the attorneys any more fuel than they already have...

1/2" increase in MP is what I see in my J. Increase in speed? Maybe, but too small to notice. Free 1/2" MP? Yes, I'll take it...

All good points, Gentlemen. Seeing as there did not appear to be anything on this topic in the forum and considering I was actually in Telluride at the time, I felt it was worth getting out in the open. I fly professionally into all of the mountain airports -- TEX, JAC, ASE, EGE, etc and they each have their interesting qualities. Watching all the NA GA airplanes coming and going (to incl a 400-hr PP in a Cardinal), I felt that this was worth delving into. Will I fly my NA 201 into these airports? Yes, but it will be under optimal conditions. I taught mountain flying in Alaska and I'm here to tell you, mountain flying is some of the most rewarding flying to be had, but one cannot afford to be uneducated about it or complacent with it.

Any info out there about flying a normally aspirated M20J into, say, Telluride, CO and then getting back out safely? In cruise flight at 9,000 feet, I usually see 21" MP at 2500 RPM... Any shared experiences, techniques, etc would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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