Marc_B

@Becca I feel there is a risk flying in Fisk. Flying my aircraft into Osh with the Caravan the last three years, I feel that was WAY less risk and difficulty. Of course as with most things in life you can choose your risk tolerance and flying profiles and so it sounds like you've decided the Caravan isn't for you and that is 100% okay. The Mooney Caravan tent has been set up in the same location for the past 3 years, and there has been a Mooney Forum/presentation at Osh (I think they usually do it on Tuesday?) so you can check the day to day lecture schedule. Anyone can also check the Mooney Caravan website for schedule and details. A last option is that anyone could also fly into MSN Madison on their way independently up to Osh to meet some of the Caravan pilots. I haven't been aware of any Mooneyspace get togethers at Osh since I joined.

The more I think about this, it's like most things in life. You'll never know 100% about everything and sometimes the best game plan isn't knowing how to work everything perfectly, but rather having a plan B when things change or don't go as expected. Even with a steam gauge panel, we've moved past the era without a GPS. To successfully train the future we need to embrace that and realize it comes with pros and cons. So it's up to the pilot and their instructors to maximize the pros and minimize the cons. But I feel rather strongly that trying to train pilots that they have to be 100% and know everything increases the chance that they don't acknowledge an error, get task saturated on things that may not be a priority, or don't feel free to confess when they need help. Proficiency is only achieved with continued, deliberate work and regular practice. Learn what to do with VFR flight into IMC. Ask for a vector while you set up your equipment. Ask for a delay vector if you need more time on an approach. Ask for a heading to VFR weather. Admit that you don't have proper fuel reserves and make a pit stop. Pay attention to weather changes and decide to make a stop. Know that "unable" is a valid response when the circumstance warrants it. I don't think that any of us will ever know all our equipment completely...even the best instructors or professional pilots. But maybe the best instruction is how to adapt and how to quickly recognize the emergency in front of you. This is after all why we have checklists and POH/AFMS with emergency procedures. This is also why as my buddy reminded me, "it's important to learn from others mistakes, because you can't live long enough to make them all yourself." (Eleanor Roosevelt)

That was my thought! Those are the cheapest item purchased for the Mooney by at least 2-3 decimal places!

My POH comments cowl flaps open -4kts, half flaps -2kts.

@Alan Maurer https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/edmobreakercaps.php

This is what I found the in the M20K service manual. Not sure if this is what you're looking for?

@Nico1 you’ll find a lot of threads on commercial maneuvers if you google search “commercial maneuvers site:mooneyspace.com” I took the GATTs course out in Kansas for my commercial instruction. Was worried about the engine management before as I wasn’t familiar, but didn’t think it turned out to not be an issue at all. I kept cowl flaps open for most of the maneuvers, but closed on spiral descents. Once you figure out your power settings for the speed you want for maneuvers it’s pretty straightforward. For me, gaining the proficiency with my own aircraft was just as (probably more) important as getting the rating.

The one I have collared is the autopilot breaker. That would be the one that I'd need to pull "in a hurry" if I had runaway trim issue. Otherwise it seems that most scenarios would be more deliberate and slow.

I think that's the crux of learning and training advanced avionics, GPS units, and navigators...There are a lot of procedures that you may not use regularly and aren't trained regularly. Some things are time critical, whereas others you can request delay vectors, or just put the unit in heading mode while you set things up. So the big question, is what's the "right" mix of simulation, Garmin Aviation Trainer knobology type computer work, and flight training. What items need to be included in an "Understanding your panel" guide book. What list of training tasks should be routinely exercised and understood. Even your basic steam gauge panel will have GPS Nav/Coms that require experience, understanding and education (and I've not yet flown a VOR approach that I thought would be my choice if weather was bad). Some of these tasks need to be trained with an instructor, but a lot of them are just process tasks that can easily be exercised in the air or at a desk chair. i.e. if you've never been asked to remove a hold do you default to "direct to" hold exit or do you just remove the hold by clicking on the hold and then remove, or do you try to reload the procedure and say "no" when it asks if you want to load the hold? @midlifeflyer I like your list as it's something that we all can work on independently as well as with an instructor.

Curious if any of you have put together a flight simulator with RealSimGear equipment and your experience and set up. I have X-plane 11 on my old laptop and a honeycomb alpha yoke. But have tossed around with the idea of putting together a little better setup for some emergency and instrument scenarios. The biggest limitations to ease of use with my current set up is the screen (hard to put everything in to easy see what you need to without panning a lot), and the avionics interface where I'm not "plugged in" to the cockpit the same way you are typically. Seems like a large curved monitor and a set up like RealSimGear bundle would go a long way towards that but wondering if it's worth the investment, what equipment is optimal, and how well it replicates your workflow IRL. equipment list/pics/details would be helpful! Marc.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/pilots/eaa-pilot-proficiency I've always wanted to stop by for these at Oshkosh, but haven't had the opportunity. Has anyone gone to the EAA Pilot Proficiency Center for a session or for more comprehensive training workshops? If you could choose customized Redbird simulators with this, that would be pretty awesome! "Our current programming includes: Self-guided, one-hour Redbird Pro Simulation Sessions: With your current Redbird Pro App subscription (or 30-day free trial), you can schedule time for a baseline skills assessment and then receive a customized and on-going training plan. Customizable IFR and VFR proficiency-based trainings: Trainings can range from two hours in length to multi-day or a full week in length and can be tailored to your group’s training needs. Fully-immersive certificate-based training: The ultimate in proficiency training, explore new or additional pilot certifications in a safe, hands-on experience with multi-screen, wrap- around visual panels, realistic controls, and even specific environments. For example, our Sport Pilot Academy for new pilots, which can take you from pedestrian to pilot in three weeks. (More offerings coming in 2023!)"

my $0.02 after going though this. I had the legacy G500 and when I was having issues with my King AP, I upgraded to the GFC500. Took that time to finish the panel the way I wanted it for the foreseeable future. So my thoughts: 1) G500TXi is much better than the legacy and I feel there are a few format items, placement, and more similarity to the GTNs with the TXi vs the G3X. I like the format of the AP scoreboard on the TXi better. A little brighter screen. But you'd be happy with either. If you are going with a Big screen PFD and the GTNs, no need to cram more data into the standby. So I chose the G5 standby. For all the square screens, it seems to match better. And personally I feel the GI275 was trying to put too much into a too small of hole. Also the battery life of the G5 is much better which is what I'd be using the standby instrument for anyways. When I did my upgrade, the G5 was available immediately (275 backlog) and it was cheaper. 2) I started with an EI MVP-50 engine monitor, and I really like it and kept it with the upgrade. EI is very easy to deal with when I upgraded the screen and when they had new probes that had better life and they switched them out with my current probes. Personally I have gotten used to, and enjoy having, engine data separate from the PFD. It is also super easy to button through the screens for all my data at the end of a flight and a USB jump drive to download all engine data. 3) Agreed, the GTN750Xi is a great unit. I have the GTN650Xi below it and think they work well together...but I do most of the work from the GTN750. For me this is one more place to put traffic, default nav page for all my data, and if I had any issues with GTN750, they are clones of each other so same buttonology. I like having two Nav/coms for IFR, and everything crossfills and talks between the GTNs. So I can use the TXi or either GTN to send freqs to both. So I routinely use wx/ground/clearance freqs on 2 and com1 use active airborne freqs. 3a) Not sure what you're doing with audio panel, but I have the GMA35 remote audio panel and it's all controlled from the GTN750. I prefer it that way and really enjoy the Garmin Telligence, 3D audio (when on comm1 and monitoring comm2 then 1 comes out of left ear and 2 comes out of right ear in headphone), and it all seems pretty easy to use from the GTN. If you're not sure, I'd see if you can demo/check out someone with a PS engineering audio panel and someone with the GMA35/35c. 4) For me another screen on the right side just didn't make sense. My "copilot" most of the time is watching a movie or reading. Instead I have an Aera 760 yoke mount on the left yoke. This is a super fast and easy way to control music, keep on traffic page around the airport, see weather en route, put on terrain in mountains (I like the terrain page of the 760 better than the terrain page on the panel...760 has a profile view with flight path projection like Foreflight as well as the overhead view with colors), and view charts/airport data/etc independently of the GTN screen and closer to me. In my mind, a second PFD/MFD on the copilot side makes sense with a throw over yoke (i.e. some bonanzas) or with larger aircraft where you have your copilot flying the entire flight sometimes. Personally I didn't feel it was a benefit for me. Hindsight) about the only thing that I might have considered was having the transponder changed to a remote...but it's out of the way and I do actually use the buttons to turn off, on, alt, etc. Its quicker for me to do this from the transponder when flying formation. But putting squawk codes I do from the GTN. I really enjoy my panel, and the biggest part is whatever you do get plenty of training and make sure you understand the quirks, buttonology, and how to set it all up. A solid instructor and an onsite Garmin course go a LONG way, but reading the pilot guides completely through several times is a must.

The other option is to check out your local uniform, sports and medical scrub shops. They're use to doing embroidery, screen print and customization. I've had screen print shirt made, my hat customized with tail number, and things embroidered. i.e. here is the local shop I've used here in Northern CO. https://encoreuniform.com/

@Pinecone I attended the Garmin onsite course for the TXi/Xi this spring. Great reps on standard stuff. But not really any reps on EPs, what things look like when they fail (I was surprised at this one), and not much about some of the more nuanced aspects of VNAV and transitions to approaches (especially ILS). I had about 6 months in my current panel when I attended, and almost 2 years with legacy G500/GTNs, so most of the tasks being taught were basic, but a few different ways to do things and a few things that I haven't done before, i.e. building user waypoints through a MOA based on Radial/distance and radial/radial created waypoints. I also don't frequently change the course on the direct to field so it was good to learn about that. But I think that if you are getting one of those panels put in and don't have any experience, it's a definite must do. Plus it was cool to tour Garmin aviation and I always love flying into MKC (took me right over MCI heading east then turned south towards the city for a straight in to MKC. Highly recommended! (plus had to stop by Jack Stack for some BBQ). But the Garmin kiosks just run on autopilot and only work on knobology. Would be sweet to have a full sim like a Redbird, but that was adaptable to the equipment you use...that you could check out time at your local flight school. I've thought about putting together a RealSimGear avionics package based on my aircraft but would probably be 6AMU+ (all in, avionics, computer, yoke, etc.) and I think at that point it would be better to have someone (CFI/II) walk you though scenarios, equipment failures, complicated approaches, etc. in order to really make it a TRAINING experience. 6AMU is quite a bit of fuel with a CFI/II in the right seat! That book was one of the drivers for me getting my commercial...my thinking is that if I can get myself over an airport, there is no reason I shouldn't be able to set her down safely...but without the reps and experience it was more of a "hope" than a skill! Good reminder to add that in routinely so that muscle memory doesn't atrophy! I find that they are pretty easy to deal with as well...I frequently fly to Centennial and ask to cut the bravo around BJC each time...usually get it direct to APA so I can streamline my descent without worrying about the shelf. And I finally figured out if I file YOKES (coming in from east) as the waypoint prior to GXY (home base) that they won't give me a reroute STAR that they are going to vector me off after 1-2 waypoints anyways.

This is one of the best reasons for a non-commercial pilot to get their commercial rating. It’s all about energy management, emergency descents, better control around points, and target engine out 180s. I think that reps with these with an instructor will be WAY easier than trying to figure out yourself.

If you want Yeti items, you can upload graphics for personal use and your name or tail number, etc. Yeti also offers a discount if you have an ID.me account. I've had them make mugs, tumblers, water bottles. https://flyboytoys.com/ Flyboy Toys also has some stuff you can customize like mugs, shirts, etc.

@Dmax The initial MooneyMax website showed Mooney factory tour on Wednesday, but just checked the website and an agenda is listed showing the tour on Saturday. Does anyone know if tours are offered both days or just on Saturday?? Also looks like RightSeatReady moved from Friday to Thursday for anyone interested. https://www.mooneymax.com/

I know of two CFI's in Colorado that both own and fly M20K 252's regularly (one at KCOS, the other at KBJC) I'll send you a DM. edit: both have M20E time. My comment was that they are CFis but they owns Mooneys as well. @MarcJohnson @gsxrpilot

Certainly I can understand the role of unexpected failures to simulate the randomness of emergencies. But I wonder if there would be a good way to build a solid framework of ADMs and aviation prior to poking holes to highlight the weaknesses. Personally I don't think that private, instrument or commercial ratings go though emergency procedures and failures enough for them to be deeply engrained. Probably military and airline pilots get much more of this than your typical GA pilot ever will. @Vance Harral have you gotten a sense for what background and prior training the pilots who do well with this have? Or maybe a process of identifying weaknesses and then building a prescription for improvement? Basically building with the idea that we're not only trying to make pilots think, but we're trying to make them build better muscle memory and more appropriate reactions each time. i.e. engine failure on take off needing to push the nose forward to prevent stalling... My point is, outside of the BFR, IPC or a new rating, the education is up to the pilot to improve. What type of exercises can we prescribe to work on with friends, while solo, with an instructor...to help them improve, highlight and work on weaknesses, and continue on a progression of safety? The problem with ground AATD/BATD with advanced avionics is that most of them are very basic with steam gauges and usually the "advanced ones" are centered only around the G1000. I'd love to see a flight simulation center (hello Cessna Flight Center, Gleim, King Schools), come up with a weekend flight course that is customizable to your avionics (or as closely as they can get) that has a curriculum of training. How amazing of a PPP/BFR/IPC adjunct would that be!

Curious if any of you have come up with structured must work on procedures, EPs, or have specific workflows (for the CFI/CFII's in the group) that you find are 1) more challenging for most pilots, 2) don't seem to get worked out enough, or 3) are basic things that should be trained frequently. This would be super helpful not just in general, but specifically where you've found that advanced avionics have been a hurdle. Hopefully this can be a constructive thread where we all share issues you've seen on BFR's/IPC's, learning point, and suggestion for improvement. I'm sure that most of the pilots active on MooneySpace are a cut above your general aviation pilot. Perhaps we can all share ideas for tasks to work on, how to structure these into our routine flying, and how to exercise the legs we don't use enough. I try to occasionally go out and work on things like approaches, commercial maneuvers, steep turns, etc. But some of these seem like they many not be highlighting weaknesses, introducing new procedures or requests I might find in other areas, or exercising muscle memory for all the emergency procedures that might need to be ingrained. What tasks do you all feel don't get worked enough, but would help decrease accidents or improve safety and how would you recommend working on them? Ideal format would be identified deficiency, set up for exercise, and how often to include this in your flights?? Ideas?

Alternator cooling shroud assembly pn: 800053-501, -503, or -505. I'm not sure what the differences are between them (I suspect they fit the profile for different alternators). I added the effectivities to the screen shot above. This was from the M20K IPC. And it's interesting that you have #653344 alternator mounted? The TCM parts catalog shows that as the gear drive alternator, and #649283 as the belt drive alternator. I looked back and couldn't find a picture on my computer showing of my belt drive part number. I'll have to take a look next time the cowl is off.

Weather/taxiing on grass during Osh (for any participant) could be a concern as there is typically weather that rolls through at some point every year. 2022/2023 had some crazy rain storms that passed through Saturday night/Sunday after the Mooney Caravan arrived. We found that quality outdoor tents were a nonissue, but the el cheapo Walmart special tents got turned into to flattened bath tubs! That year the Caravan vehicles and board went to the local outdoor store and picked up all the tents they had for the unfortunate fishies. This year rain rolled through and I think everyone was unscathed. It never lasts long, and the HUGE Caravan circus tent is a great place to congregate, drink a cold one, and chat with your fellow Mooney pilots as the bugs get washed off your wings. The taxi marshallers do a good job of placing cones on low spots and the grounds dry out pretty quickly as the remaining days are typically SUNNY. I still taxi decently slow/carefully, yoke pulled back to my chest, and they do a great job of rolling the grass smooth for the show. The three times I've been at Osh, I had no problem taxiing where I was being directed. We did have a pilot this year peel off after landing and go to general aviation parking area; he wasn't staying/camping at Osh but wanted to come with the Caravan. So it is possible to park somewhere else...although I think it's WAY more fun to camp beside your Mooney! Securing Aircraft: This is probably one of the benefits of the Caravan. You're surrounded by mass arrivals and I think that most mass arrivals are ahead of the curve in terms of Osh camping! These are the aircraft that usually have LED solar lights, cutting boards under the wheels, the Claw type tie downs, canopy covers, camp seating, etc. Given that most of the Caravan are seasoned vets, you can be sure none of the aircraft around you are going anywhere for most weather that would be coming through. I've found that the Claw is a great tiedown to use, works well, and easy to place and remove. Leaving Osh: Most pilots bring wooden or plastic cutting boards for the wheels; it distributes the weight over a larger footprint to keep from sinking into the grass as much. I picked up 3 cutting boards from Sam's that I reuse every year. Still, it takes more than just you to pull your aircraft out, but fortunately you have a whole group of Mooney friends to help make it easy! Food: The caravan always plans a group dinner every year under the tent. There are also several group meals that get planned in Madison as well as at Osh. Breakfasts are included Sunday - Wednesday under the tent each morning (part of the small Caravan registration fee). Lunches you are on your own. This year there were several that brought coleman stoves and we cooked out steaks or hotdogs. Food is definitely something that seems to get refined every year! At the clinic I attended there was one pilot who had some issues with feeling comfortable with engine management and trusting that his engine settings were fine (they were). But after a couple sorties with a seasoned safety pilot in the right seat he wasn't quite ready...and he wasn't signed off. But despite that there was never a problem with safety of flight, and that pilot has the opportunity to continue to learn and attend a future clinic to continue training. Hopefully as he improves, formation flight will gel and he'll join us. But if not, we still had a great time meeting another Mooney pilot and I'm sure he learned a lot in the process. Sometimes Formation flight may not be for you, but you don't know that till you try. If at any time a pilot feels unsafe, they can always call knock it off...for any reason. This is ingrained into the training both for your safety and the safety of others. BTW, we also have had a Beech pilot that joined that didn't get signed off. So it's not a gimme to get approved to fly in the Caravan. And if not for formation flying...how else are you supposed to get cool pictures!!

Nice! I think this is one job that new definitely doesn't = better. Probably the glue/epoxy will be stronger than the thin material this is made out of. The heat cycles under the cowl have to be taxing on thin plastic materials! Edit: And if you do ever replace it, post back up where you found a part available and cost!!

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/is-glass-safer/ https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Documents/SS1001.pdf "Advanced avionics and electronic displays can increase the safety potential of general aviation aircraft operations by providing pilots with more operational and safety-related information and functionality, but more effort is needed to ensure that pilots are prepared to realize that potential." NTSB But the discussion is more nuanced than the broad brush strokes being painted of advanced equipment is unsafe. Consider that the majority of GA pilots today learned to fly with conventional equipment, the FAA knowledge exams are steeped in round dials and have limited testing pertaining to glass panels, the lion share of training aircraft are round dials, and the vast majority of AATD/BATDs are based on round dials. Familarity and uniformity go a long way. Once we actually start comparing apples to apples and review how pilots are trained and tested, then we can actually have better data to compare the variations of equipment. The silver bullet to safety is pilot training and proficiency with whatever equipment you're using.

What I think would decrease accident rates: High fidelity simulation, more routine and structured training, and better testing/assessment of skill and deficiencies. For 121 ops this is a given. For GA pilots it's not mandated, easy, or inexpensive....and it's almost 100% self (pilot) driven.