1980Mooney

There are four (4) cases of NBS No-back Spring failure in the FAA ASIAS database. M20J Sept. 15, 1991 M20R July 5, 2003 M20S Oct. 30, 2002 M20J May 15, 2005 The problem is that it does not distinguish Plessey actuator failures from Eaton actuator failures. The Eaton actuator NBS is the subject of this topic. As you all know the Plessey actuator is on longer supported. Tom Rouch, in the same Mooney Flyer article said: "I have dealt with planes that have a broken no-back clutch spring. Most of these had Plessey actuators, which were used in the late 90s. These use a slightly different spring from all other actuators. The Plesseys are now obsolete and their no-back clutch springs are not available." https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2017-AugTMF.pdf p. 17-19 FAA ASIAS NBS Failures https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:19910915046159I https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:20030705013639I https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:20031030030799I https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:18:::NO::AP_BRIEF_RPT_VAR:20050515016429I

I don't know if it happens more on retraction or during extension but you have the danger backwards. Per Tom Rouch, who used to run Top Gun Aviation Mooney Service Center before he retired: "If the no-back clutch spring breaks while retracting the gear, the gear will not go down for landing. If it breaks during extension, the gear will go down, and probably hold the gear down. You probably won't know that the no-back clutch spring is broken until the next flight when the gear won't retract. The main defect in this gear system is that the emergency extension depends on an intact no-back clutch spring. " See Mooney Flyer August 2017, page 17-19 https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2017-AugTMF.pdf

When you say "similar to a Mooney", do you mean a fuselage with "steel frame and essentially non-loadbearing aluminum skin"? The spirit of the post would be that you would not do it. Even Mooney, when they designed the pressurized M22 Mustang, ditched the steel frame and went with conventional aluminum alloy semi-monocoque structure like everyone else. https://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/WestinLarry/12817.htm

Pressurized, PT6, Scratch build, no modification of tired old existing design. It is called the Epic LT which became the Epic E1000. Spot on.

When looking dead on you may be right. But it is the flashing on and off that catches your attention peripherally when scanning off center. Also if at night with bright stars/planet or also over a city with a lot of light pollution, the flashing better separates you from all that.

Does your LED landing light have a built in flashing feature? Thereby making your built-in Pulselite redundant ? Is that the issue? About 25 years ago I had a Pulselite installed due to the heavy wattage load and short life of the 12 volt GE incandescents. Eventually went with LED when they got better. Power consumption no longer an issue. But know I use the Pulselite with the LED landing lights practically all the time for recognition in and around Houston airspace. You might think twice before ripping the Pulselite and wiring out. Also your new LED’s are on that same breaker and rely on that wiring most likely.

Actually you have it backwards. If they don't get the required 45 orders with advance payment of $1,250, I suspect they will charge more. That means that they need a set-up fee of $56,250 cash in hand to start. Fewer orders means the same fixed cost spread over however many orders they get. If you plane is sitting AOG for months waiting for them to place the" 32 week" order for springs (and if it is the first batch don't be surprised if there are hiccups which stretch that way out) and Lasar calls and says "We need you to pay another $1,000 now and $4,000 in total to get the wheels rolling and make this happen" - just what are you going to do?

They are delivering engines. They may have gotten more orders than planned. And they may have some suppler delays. That expands their backlog. But they have everyone’s deposit. And if they need to tie more money up in inventory longer than expected, they will just get a cash advance from Textron Corp - think of it as an interest free loan. That’s how they keep the lights on. And when they ship then they realize big cash and big profits. It’s just a timing issue. Granted a painful one for a plane owner that needs to buy one.

Sorry to hear that your plane will be down for such a long time. But this just highlights as previously discussed that Lycoming sees this as a temporary demand aberration that they will work off as best they can with their current manufacturing plant and workforce. As Textron allocates capital to all its businesses and (Lycoming has to compete for it) investing in additional automated production capacity and hiring more unionized labor this just doesn't rise to the level that makes sense. If they committed now to additional production capacity, it probably would not be functional until 2026 just at demand falls back. Demand just isn't there. To survive the brutal downturn in demand for engines starting in the late 80's, Lycoming aggressively outsourced manufacturing of many critical parts and reduced capacity. The Lycoming plant became more of an engine assembler and with less and less competitive advantage from independent engine shops. Outsourcing, while cutting cost, sacrificed quality control. The crankshaft debacle of the late 90's/early 2000's was due to botched heat treating by a vendor. As @PT20J noted, Lycoming brought manufacturing of jugs back in house just before Covid. Piston manufacturing also returned. These are huge "additions" to manufacturing at Williamsport and very disruptive. Covid brought more disruption. Bottom line, you can get in line and wait at Lycoming or you can have independents like Jewell in Kennett do your overhaul. more quickly.... Lycoming Takes Piston Manufacturing Back In-House - AVweb

We have had this conversation many times over the last few years. @Sabremech said the same thing 3 years ago. @Pinecone and others weighed in with pros and cons 2 years ago. This conversation has been going on for 13 years.....

Can someone definitively clarify: Is Lasar going to stock and sell NBS made by (or sourced by) Eaton? (marked as made by Eaton) OR Is Lasar going to commission manufacture of NBS using Mooney? Eaton? design/material/heat treatment procedures, etc? (marked as a Lasar brand equivalent) Because if it is the former, it is no different than Lasar selling Champion spark plugs. If the plug fails then the liability is with Champion. If Lasar is just selling the part (or plug) and not installing, there is minimal risk of liability. If it is the latter then they probably need insurance since we won't know if their springs will stand up for quite some time. Either way, I think everyone involved knows that they have a monopoly and that they can charge whatever they want. It's not like they are going to risk future sales to or jeopardize their relationship with. Mooney. There is little threat of being "designed out" in the future. It is unlikely that Mooney will ever build another retract. Lasar/Eaton know that they can milk it for all they can get. The odd thing is that Mooney could not front enough cash to get their hand in to grab some of that $3K as a middle man.

Yes. I think that is the only reason that we have a Service Bulletin.

Lasar posted on their website: LASAR INC is pleased to return to market the crucial Eaton "no-back" clutch spring, as specified in Mooney SB M20-282. Initial quantities are limited with a manufacturing lead time of 32 weeks. Can someone with knowledge explain exactly what happened? Lasar says it is selling the "Eaton" spring. It sounds like they are just marketing a spring the comes from Eaton (That Eaton sources from one of Eaton's suppliers). Lasar are not saying they are selling a compatible replacement spring, not a PMA part - they are selling the Eaton spring People here are talking OPP and PMA People note that Eaton probably owns the drawings/IP/Knowhow/testing People are saying "Jonny gave Lasar authority to order" - that does not sound like IP/drawings/material specs where transferred. That sounds like a contractual arrangement to just sell directly to a MSC. Do some think that Lasar is going to find a spring supplier and fabricate a compatible spring? Who is going to life cycle test it? Or is that why the first ones to buy will be getting it at a Discount?

If only it was that easy. That is like searching for the Holy Grail. We have been looking for that "same part" for 25 years. It does not exist......

As a lot of our fleet is 50-60 years old you find planes in all conditions and situations. Obviously a buyer needs to understand the condition of the plane. There are hangar queens that are not insured and there are hangar queens that are insured. It’s not the insurance that makes any difference. It is more about how it has been flown and stored over its life and currently.

I am confused. A plane doesn’t need insurance to fly. And you don’t own it (yet) - otherwise what is the purpose of the prebuy? When do you actually take ownership? After prebuy and no airworthiness issues? Or will there be more haggling on price depending on condition? There are 2 issues. First who will fly it to the prebuy shop? That pilot needs his own insurance for Liability. (Like having renters insurance). Second, if anything happens to the plane the current owner takes a loss on his asset and is subject to lawsuit/liability. Unless you are flying it, this is not your problem.

This is the best illustration. It's like buying a $3,000 ring..... You might as well be shopping at Tiffany's....

$3,000 for a spring the size of your little finger. This is insane . And it still needs to be installed…more $.@PT20J is right. This is a good deal for Lasar. And of course for Eaton. It sucks for owners. Mooney must really be in dire straits if it could not scrape up any cash in order to get on this gravy train.

The Crash Map is biased towards more recent accidents and it does not have any after 2018. There are very few accidents before the 1980's for instance and I am skeptical that it has all of the 80's. For example, if I select "list" accidents for New Mexico it produces 712 accidents. If I search for accidents in New Mexico on Aviation Safety Network it produces a list of 2,337 accidents. If I do the same for Texas the Crash Map shows 2,751 accidents in TX but Aviation Safety Network shows 10,582 accidents. So it looks like the Crash Map is missing about 75% of the airplane crashes.

If the specs are owned by ITT or Cessna/Textron then they are not going to give you squat. All they get is liability in return. When a large corporation licenses IP/technology/drawings to another entity, they expect to get an indemnification from the receiving company to hold them harmless and reimburse for any lawsuits arising due to a failure with the new product/new licensing company. Lawsuits go after the deep pockets. An indemnification from an individual or a hollow shell of a company is worthless.

The OP said "but I'm missing the stall/gear warning speaker on my Eagle. " Hence the mystery....

That's a fair point. The Speakers are listed in both places - Parts Catalog on the headliner page and in the back of the Service Manual with the Electrical details (for both J and R/S). But you need the wiring schematic in the Service Manual to be sure that you are connecting them correctly. The Ovations get pretty complicated because the original ones had two (2) Sonalerts. The electrical Schematics show, M20R, thru serial no. 29-0131 (1997) had two (2) speakers and two (2) sonalerts. Starting in 1998, serial no. 29-0132 and on, Ovations had only two (speakers). The Parts manual shows that the Sonalerts were there through 29-0088. I would bet that the schematic is correct but who knows. I believe the OP has a 1999 Eagle. The posted Eagle Service Manual in the Downloads section lacks the wiring schematics. I would use Schematic 800383(R3) Master (Rev.R) on page 656 of the Ovation Service Manual instead (it is also in the Downloads section) M20R Service and Maintenance Manual P/N MAN161 Revision B: May 2014 - Airframe Manuals - Mooneyspace.com - A community for Mooney aircraft owners and enthusiasts The OP's picture above shows that he has the 3,5 inch Blaupunkt dual cone cabin speaker PCx352. That is a 4 ohm speaker. Note that it is 1.5 inches deep from the mounting flange. The original 3.5 inch Archer/Realistic speakers were 8 ohms. Perhaps an electrical engineer can comment whether that makes any difference. These were all sold as car stereo speakers - usually the 3.5 inch speakers were intended for dash applications. Neither the Blaupunkt or Archer/Realistic have been made for 15 years or more. But there are several Realistic 40-1333D speakers on eBay that may work. Also the Kenwood KFC-835C may work although it is a dual cone. It is 4 ohms. But make sure that the depth fits. https://www.kenwood.com/usa/car/caraudio/speakers/kfc-835c/

Electrical components, wiring and schematics for Mooney's are in the "Service and Maintenance Manuals". They are not the Illustrated Parts Catalogs for whatever reason.

Yes- that is typically how it goes especially when most owners or hands in the gondola are rookies with a little experience. The problem was that they were way off course and not supposed to land anywhere near our neighborhood.

My parents had a hot air balloon from the first Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta "crash land" in our front yard in 1972. Luckily they missed the trees, parked car and powerlines as the wind drug them along. I guess that doesn't really count as a "crash".